Ok, I'm stuck in a rules question, and I can't decide on the answer. This is from a Rise of the Runelords campaign that's reached Fort Rannick. My players went up against the Ogre Fighters and one of my players has whips that he's used to disarm them. The Ogres then tried to punch him and we can't decide if their punches provoke attacks of opportunity or not, and if they do and he winds up tripping them, what then happens to their attack.
These are the relevant rules:
Quote: Unarmed Attacks:
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity:
Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks:
Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Quote: Natural Attacks: (relevant section)
Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making attacks with both hands. See Table 3–1 for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.
Do the Ogre's fists count as "natural physical weapons" listed in the "Armed Unarmed Attacks" rule or not? I can make a case for both in this instance. I would count them as weapons to determine their attack bonus, and I would roll damage for them based off of the Natural Attacks by Size chart (I assume they fall under the "Other" listing), so for both attack and damage they count as natural physical weapons, but do they also count as such for attacks of opportunity?
Secondly, if they do provoke an AoO, and he then uses his whips and trips them, what happens to their attacks? The trip AoO would happen before the punch, so they would fall prone. Does that then stop their punch completely and they lose their action, or do they get to still try to punch him while prone (with the related penalty to attack roll)?
Unless the creature has a natural attack listed, they do not possess a natural attack unless they somehow otherwise acquire one. So no, it’s not a natural attack, it’s an unarmed attack.
Then, if a creature makes an unarmed attack and does not have Improved Unarmed Strike, they provoke an attack of opportunity from any armed enemies that they attempt to attack.
A whip, however, doesn’t threaten enemies, you can only make attacks with it on your turn at its reach of 15ft, and cannot make attack of opportunity’s with it. I think there’s feats or something that end up letting you, but it’s never interested me so it hasn’t come up.
Anyway, back to the Ogre’s provoking an AoO. The ogre would make its unarmed attack and immediately provoke an AoO *from any enemy it attacks that is threatening a square he occupies.*. Threatening means an enemy has to be able to make an attack into that square. If the ogre is adjacent to the player, and the player has a reach weapon, he could not make an AoO with that weapon. If the ogre is 10ft away (which he should be since they have 10ft reach.. unless they *wanted* to be adjacent to their enemy while unarmed), and the player can only target squares adjacent to him, they cannot take an AoO.
Now to your last question, if the ogre provokes, your player takes an AoO to trip and succeeds, the ogre still gets to take any actions he has left. He still gets to attack (with the -4 for being prone).
You should read through the AoO section of the rules, explains it pretty well
But I fail to divine the scenario in which an unarmed Ogre grants an AoO from an early game character with a whip.
Very well explained. Thanks! I wasn't actually aware of that limitation with whips, and I'm unsure if my player was aware of it either. I will have to look over his character sheet later tonight and see if he's taken the required Improved Whip Mastery feat and it's prerequisites that are needed to threaten with a whip. He's a level 8 fighter working on a trip build, so I believe it is theoretically possible for him to have it, although generally I require my players to get my approval before using supplemental rulebooks in this campaign, and I don't specifically remember him asking me about this one.
Improved Whip Mastery would be the feat to look for. Which a 8th level fighter could easily have.
If you want to threaten adjacent squares while wielding a reach weapon, you could get armor spikes for a shoulder ram of some kind. It's a nice option because you can enchant it separately. I'd recommend Bane (whatever Humanoid you're facing the most in that campaign).
Off topic, but gotta say it. I despise paying for permanent bane. If I’m martial I will always go 3 (or 4) levels of weapon master fighter to get warrior spirit and give myself the type of bane I want every fight.
RAWmonger wrote: Anyway, back to the Ogre’s provoking an AoO. The ogre would make its unarmed attack and immediately provoke an AoO *from any enemy it attacks that is threatening a square he occupies.*. Nitpick:
Any creature that threatens would get an AoO, not just those that were attacked.
/cevah
Cevah wrote: RAWmonger wrote: Anyway, back to the Ogre’s provoking an AoO. The ogre would make its unarmed attack and immediately provoke an AoO *from any enemy it attacks that is threatening a square he occupies.*. Nitpick:
Any creature that threatens would get an AoO, not just those that were attacked.
/cevah Wrong. The rules around making an unarmed attack only provokes an AoO from the creature you’re attacking. Go search it yourself, I’ve read it enough
Whoops. That's what happens when I don't play characters with unarmed attacks. Sigh.
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. /cevah
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