Compare the following scenarios:
A) (We start in encounter mode) The party is fighting monsters in an arena. The arena master is at the top of the initative order in a control room overlooking the arena, but out of reach; on each of his turns, he can act to trigger one of several built-in hazards in the arena or release new monsters from cages via a lever-system. Suddenly, the fighter, who also happens to be a multiclass sorcerer, unexpectedly displays magical ability for the first time in the scene and on his turn casts dimension door to port into the control room and attack the arena master.
B) (We start in exploration mode) The party is trapped in an arena. There are monsters locked in cages and various hazards controlled via a lever system from a control room above. They are using various exploration mode activities, the rogue is looking for secret doors to exit, the wizard is casting detect magic in the hope of finding an illusionary wall, etc. All the while, the arena master is laughing at them from his control room above the arena and announces that to pass, they need to beat the challenges of the arena on his terms. Suddenly, the fighter, who is also a multi-class sorcerer, for the first time in the scene, displays magical ability and casts dimension door to port into the control room and attack the arena master. (Switch to encounter mode) Initiative is rolled, the arena master is at the top of the initiative order.
The scenes are essentially identical, the fighter unexpectedly casts something to get him up close to the arena master (let's assume the arena master doesn't have the ability to identify the spell being cast). The places in the intiative order when rolled are identical. The spell being cast takes the same time to cast. The arena master feels equally safe from the activity down below in his control room.
Edit: and just to clarify, as this happens, in both scenarios, the fighter is standing next to the cleric to receive a heal spell and is not actively engaged with a monster.
But in scenario A) the arena master cannot react, unless he had an action readied for that case (unlikely). In scenario B) however, he can suddenly know what's coming and not just react, but act before the fighter? It's much more appropriate to have him spend his actions talking as he had before and only start the change in behaviour with the fighter's turn, instead of suddenly knowing he's about to be attacked.
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I think you're trying to put too much narrative weight on a mechanic that exists, essentially, to overlay miniature-game rules onto the game when the narrative breaks down.
In scenario A, yes, the Arena Master has used his turn. He does get to react (although maybe not capital-R React), however, because he has a turn in initiative order. Once you start saying, in combat, "Well, actually, nobody knew the Barbarian was capable of spitting nuclear lava, so his opponent shouldn't get to react..." then you're playing a different game. Initiative and turn order are a way to structure a part of the game that doesn't easily flow as a cooperative narrative; everyone is acting essentially simultaneously in the same 6 seconds. It's a contrivance, but that's the contrivance the game uses for combat to make it manageable.
In scenario B, (1) I'm not sure why they're in exploration mode to begin with, but (2) if we take that and run with it in good faith then the second the fighter announces their intent to teleport--regardless of whether it's "surprising"--I would have everyone roll initiative. But the initiative rolled can be very unorthodox and the game allows for that. Here, you could let the fighter roll their initiative with Deception or perhaps Arcana if they wanted to, or even give them a bonus to their check or lend them a Hero Point for a cool maneuver. This might give the fighter an advantage in initiative, but still sticks to the initiative structure. You could have the Arena Master roll initiative with Arcana if you wanted them to be at a disadvantage because of the surprise factor, but if they somehow rolled extremely well and beat the fighter they still have a chance to go "Wait a second...!" before their HP total starts to go down.
Surprise or not, you're operating within initiative when one side or the other intends to start pounding the bajeezus out of some HP. Anything else is unfair and, I think, counter to how the game has set up initiative and turn order when a fight breaks out. And as I said in my previous post, nothing says that a "surprising" encounter has to stay in encounter mode; if another party member in scenario B rolls higher and decides to use their turn to talk to the Arena Master--and they resolve the issue--then you can hop right back out of encounter mode and initiative turn order.
So why in the world would using Perception for Initiative allow you to spot enemies that were undetected to you when Initiative is rolled?
Initiative sets the turn order. Full stop. If an action hasn't occurred yet by your Initiative order, then you only have reactions to fall back on to address that threat.
Surprise has it's own fundamental benefits, and those benefits are lost under Claxon's interpretation. To him it would be just as mechanically beneficial for a rogue to walk into the open and scream to the world that he is going to sneak attack the bad guy to begin a combat.
Initiative =/= Skill check. It is only there to set the turn order.
To reduce the number of rolls and eliminate the possibility of getting an initiative higher than your perception such that you get to act first, but don't know what's going on.
By the current rules this is a problem because you have the perception DC that PCs roll against with stealth. My method eliminates spidey sense.
Everybody has a chance of detecting you when you're using stealth, but generally it's just their perception DC. But that's leads to possible spidey sense.
If you're okay, then run the rules as they are which is perception DC to notice, roll perception for init. But the person who attempts to start hostilities still doesn't get a free action, free round, or automatically go first.
By the rules of PF2, there is basically no benefit to attempting to surprise someone.
And honestly, I'm glad for it. In PF1 surprise rounds could often virtually end combat in favor of that side. As a GM I never ambushed the party because a proper ambush would likely kill at least one party member, and I don't want to kill PCs. Just rough them up real good.
Compare the following scenarios:
A) (We start in encounter mode) The party is fighting monsters in an arena. The arena master is at the top of the initative order in a control room overlooking the arena, but out of reach; on each of his turns, he can act to trigger one of several built-in hazards in the arena or release new monsters from cages via a lever-system. Suddenly, the fighter, who also happens to be a multiclass sorcerer, unexpectedly displays magical ability for the first time in the scene and on his turn casts dimension door to port into the control room and attack the arena master.
B) (We start in exploration mode) The party is trapped in an arena. There are monsters locked in cages and various hazards controlled via a lever system from a control room above. They are using various exploration mode activities, the rogue is looking for secret doors to exit, the wizard is casting detect magic in the hope of finding an illusionary wall, etc. All the while, the arena master is laughing at them from his control room above the arena and announces that to pass, they need to beat the challenges of the arena on his terms. Suddenly, the fighter, who is also a multi-class sorcerer, for the first time in the scene, displays magical ability and casts dimension door to port into the control room and attack the arena master. (Switch to encounter mode) Initiative is rolled, the arena master is at the top of the initiative order.
The scenes are essentially identical, the fighter unexpectedly casts something to get him up close to the arena master (let's assume the arena master doesn't have the ability to identify the spell being cast). The places in the intiative order when rolled are identical. The spell being cast takes the same time to cast. The arena master feels equally safe from the activity down below in his control room.
Edit: and just to clarify, as this happens, in both scenarios, the fighter is standing next to the cleric to receive a heal spell and is not actively engaged with a monster....
To me scenario A is incorrect, because what you're describing is the middle of combat so they should already be in encounter mode.
Scenario A is what happens when you have scenario B but the fighter doesn't start out combat by attempting to teleport into the control room.
Surprise or not, you're operating within initiative when one side or the other intends to start pounding the bajeezus out of some HP. Anything else is unfair and, I think, counter to how the game has set up initiative and turn order when a fight breaks out. And as I said in my previous post, nothing says that a "surprising" encounter has to stay in encounter mode; if another party member in scenario B rolls higher and decides to use their turn to talk to the Arena Master--and they resolve the issue--then you can hop right back out of encounter mode and initiative turn order.
I disagree. You can definitely operate in initiative order Prior to hostilities, or even when there are no hostilities at all.
Initiative is only there to determine when people do things. It is a contrivance, and one that is only there because we resolve actions on a turn for turn basis, rather than some convoluted system where every action has it's own independent initiative and happens in an order that is realistic.
But the important part is resolving those actions on a turn for turn basis. The key question is whether or not Surprise is an advantage.
My answer is yes. If you are initiating combat, regardless of if you do so with an arrow, a sudden charge or a dimension door, you should act first.
To me the easiest way to handle this is to already be in Initiative and just start the action at the "initiating" characters turn. This allows for other creatures to use reactions to do what they are supposed to do: React, but doesn't end up with a legion of Spidey Sense enabled creatures.
I see this as being no different than delaying your turn to go after an ally who is casting a buff on you. You are acting at the moment that is opportune for you.
PF2 is not a game of perfect information. Unless a creature is directly using the Sense Motive action, and arguably not even then, they don't know what you intend to do. They can guess, and set up a readied action in response, but they don't get to treat their entire turn as a reaction to an event happening in the future.
What if the Barbarian in the very first example in this thread decided to simply stand there on his turn? Or what if he is ko'd before charging? What information did the opponents use to "start" the combat? Again, telegraphing intentions is not a mechanic in PF2. Initiative Checks are not skill checks, they give you no information, no benefits, they only set turn order.
Now you are in a situation where a player has dictated the actions of NPC's with no input from the GM. If there was a hypothetical court case after the fact the Barbarian player would be perfectly able to claim they never lifted a finger in anger at the enemy.
(replying to Puna'chong)
In scenario A) he gets to to react as in "use a reaction", or even "use a previously readied action". I did not mean to imply that he should be denied that. But that is a completely different thing from the "3-action pre-reaction" he'd get by having his turn before the fighter that many here feel that he should get in scenario B).
What I'm trying to say is that he is not broadcasting his intentions any more in one or the other scenario, thus he should not be penalized in the second case. And yes, switching from exploration mode to encounter mode before the actual triggering event is one way to handle this, and likely my preferred method. Though I'd say scenario B is one where both modes could be justified. But of course, that would effectively deny the arena master the chance to go first that others in this thread want him to have in the first round of encounter mode.
Ultimately, with the different opinions we've seen here, it'll likely boil down to individual GM decision anyway. Both regarding the question of when to switch modes and also regarding the question what actions opponents would reasonably take if they got to go before the triggering event. In scenario B above, the arena master, without knowing about what spell is being cast, maybe can tell that the fighter is up to something but cannot know what and should not be able to make more than general preparations, or maybe even just delay to see what the fighter is up to.
Fortunately, most GMs I've met have no problem separating GM knowledge "the player said his character is going to do xxx" from NPC knowledge "what the heck is that fighter doing waving his hands around down there?!". So it should be fine, either way :).
To me scenario A is incorrect, because what you're describing is the middle of combat so they should already be in encounter mode.
Scenario A is what happens when you have scenario B but the fighter doesn't start out combat by attempting to teleport into the control room.
Well, I specifically start scenario A by saying we are starting being already in encounter mode. My point is that the order of events after the surprise fighter spell should not differ this drastically when the in-game conditions, aside from the mechanical mode overlay, are pretty much identical.
If there was a hypothetical court case after the fact the Barbarian player would be perfectly able to claim they never lifted a finger in anger at the enemy.
While I definitely don't want to turn this into a discussion about Star Wars, note that the infamous scene with Han Solo shooting Greedo that has been mentioned on this thread was later modified to have Greedo shoot and miss first precisely because Han killing him on a hunch that he might possibly try something was perceived by some (or many) as outright murderous. I know that that editing decision was and is controversial and let's not go there. I'm merely bringing it up to say that that is a reasonable consideration. Not to mention that in PF2 terms, Han likely had his action readied, anyway...
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Surprise or not, you're operating within initiative when one side or the other intends to start pounding the bajeezus out of some HP. Anything else is unfair and, I think, counter to how the game has set up initiative and turn order when a fight breaks out. And as I said in my previous post, nothing says that a "surprising" encounter has to stay in encounter mode; if another party member in scenario B rolls higher and decides to use their turn to talk to the Arena Master--and they resolve the issue--then you can hop right back out of encounter mode and initiative turn order.I disagree. You can definitely operate in initiative order Prior to hostilities, or even when there are no hostilities at all.
Perhaps I was unclear in what I wrote, and I apologize. You can use turn order at any point in the game, really; whatever works for the table.
What I was arguing in the portion of my post which you quoted was that the game assumes that initiative is rolled whenever one side decides it's going to begin hostilities. This is because losing HP to an enemy's attack and, potentially, dying are things that the game wants to have happen in initiative when possible. Whether or not you've been surprised, the game wants initiative to happen to keep things fair when your character's life (or a monster's life) is on the line.
That's not to say that a DM who wants ambushes to be effective can't provide circumstance bonuses or penalties on initiative. If, as a DM, you think that the players have set up a phenomenal ambush on completely unsuspecting opponents, give them a +10 (or more!) bonus on their Stealth checks to roll initiative.
If, as in the Arena Master example above, you want the fighter's teleportation spell to be particularly surprising then have the Arena Master roll Arcana (or whatever that skill is called now) to see if they can somehow detect that a spell of some sort is being cast and they need to be ready for shenanigans. Who knows; that Arena Master might themselves be an accomplished sorcerer and know exactly what the fighter is doing with their spellcasting.
That's all to say; yes, you can have surprises give people an advantage. Yes, you can even make it so that the side that initiates combat goes first if you want. But all of that can be done squarely within the confines of initiative rolls and circumstance bonuses/penalties when you have situations where one side's goal is to hurt the other side.
Alright, I know I rolled low initiative on getting into this thread, but here's my two coppers:
"Surprise" in a PF mechanics sense to me means one side is unaware of the other. This is distinct from the adjective of "surprising" in the sense that suddenly deciding to draw a weapon or cast a spell might catch people off guard. The latter case might help that player on their initiative roll, either in the form of a direct bonus or the choice of a more favorable ability modifier. It should not, however, let them completely get the jump on whoever they're attacking.
The purpose of initiative is to determine how quickly people can react to a situation going south, and it is entirely possible for the "reactive" party to realize they're in imminent danger and act accordingly. If you were to throw a punch at me in real life, I would see your fist clench and your arm wind up. I would hope I wouldn't have to let your fist make contact with my face before I get the chance to try to dodge, block, or run away. Initiative exists to capture this idea.
In the case of actual surprise due to failing to detect someone using Stealth, I'd probably allow the sneaking player or side to get one action off before rolling initiative, as the unaware side has no chance to respond until that hostile action is taken. I guess that amounts to the sort of surprise round PF2 was trying to get rid of, but I'm willing to reward players for making the extra effort to catch their opponents completely unaware. I would not do that for simply being the player with the shortest patience for negotiation.
Well, I specifically start scenario A by saying we are starting being already in encounter mode.To me scenario A is incorrect, because what you're describing is the middle of combat so they should already be in encounter mode.
Scenario A is what happens when you have scenario B but the fighter doesn't start out combat by attempting to teleport into the control room.
Yes, but that would generally be considered the incorrect way to run it.
You're trying to make a scenario to reinforce your position, but the situation simply shouldn't exist.
In a combat situation you should definitely be in Encounter mode, in scenario A you're already in combat.
Yes, but that would generally be considered the incorrect way to run it.
You're trying to make a scenario to reinforce your position, but the situation simply shouldn't exist.
In a combat situation you should definitely be in Encounter mode, in scenario A you're already in combat.
Okay, I'm going to have to blame my non-native english here, because I have no idea what you're talking about?! There's likely some kind of misunderstanding...
Scenario A is happening in encounter mode throughout. It starts in encounter mode and doesn't leave it. How is that the incorrect way to run it? It has obviously entered encounter mode some time before, likely at the start of combat, but that's not the relevant phase for the action we're talking about.
Scenario A is there to contrast scenario B which starts in exploration mode and switches to encounter mode in a similar setting.
That switch is where the root cause of the problem lies. In scenario A, the surprising action happens in one of several rounds in initiative order, while in scenario B the surprising action happens at the start of, i.e. the beginning of the first round of the initiative order. You asked for an example of such a case, I've provided one.
With circumstances being otherwise extremely similar, I don't see why in one case we should assume the possibility of some form of precognition, while in the other we don't.
Alright, I know I rolled low initiative on getting into this thread, but here's my two coppers:
"Surprise" in a PF mechanics sense to me means one side is unaware of the other. This is distinct from the adjective of "surprising" in the sense that suddenly deciding to draw a weapon or cast a spell might catch people off guard. The latter case might help that player on their initiative roll, either in the form of a direct bonus or the choice of a more favorable ability modifier. It should not, however, let them completely get the jump on whoever they're attacking.
The purpose of initiative is to determine how quickly people can react to a situation going south, and it is entirely possible for the "reactive" party to realize they're in imminent danger and act accordingly. If you were to throw a punch at me in real life, I would see your fist clench and your arm wind up. I would hope I wouldn't have to let your fist make contact with my face before I get the chance to try to dodge, block, or run away. Initiative exists to capture this idea.
In the case of actual surprise due to failing to detect someone using Stealth, I'd probably allow the sneaking player or side to get one action off before rolling initiative, as the unaware side has no chance to respond until that hostile action is taken. I guess that amounts to the sort of surprise round PF2 was trying to get rid of, but I'm willing to reward players for making the extra effort to catch their opponents completely unaware. I would not do that for simply being the player with the shortest patience for negotiation.
If you are willing to give someone a surprise round when that is simply not a thing in pf2, what then is wrong in assuming that "initiative order" was happening all along and resolving everyone's actions as you would in any other round?
And having been punched in the face before, and being no slouch when fisticuffs are in order if I do say so myself, the idea that you will be able to react in time to do anything about a sudden punch is hilarious. At best you can reflexively dodge or try to block. What in pf2 would be a reaction in fact. You definitely would not have time to take a "turn" worth of actions, no matter who you are.
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Scenario A is happening in encounter mode throughout. It starts in encounter mode and doesn't leave it. How is that the incorrect way to run it? It has obviously entered encounter mode some time before, likely at the start of combat, but that's not the relevant phase for the action we're talking about.
Scenario A is there to contrast scenario B which starts in exploration mode and switches to encounter mode in a similar setting.
That switch is where the root cause of the problem lies. In scenario A, the surprising action happens in one of several rounds in initiative order, while in scenario B the surprising action happens at the start of the initiative order. You asked for an example of such a case, I've provided one.
With circumstances being otherwise extremely similar, I don't see why in one case we should assume the possibility of some form of precognition, while in the other we don't.
I would argue that a correct adjudication wouldn't involve precognition in either scenario.
Scenario A: combat has already been going on for one or more turns with an established initiative up to this point. The fighter/sorcerer casts Dimension Door on his turn to close the distance and (presumably) attack. Sucks to be the Arena Master since his turn was just beforehand and he now has to wait a full round to respond, but he had every opportunity to target the fighter during his previous action if he wanted. No precognition.
Scenario B: combat has yet to start when the fighter/sorcerer begins casting a spell. Dimension door costs two actions and requires both verbal and somatic components. A round is six seconds, so assuming each action is a third of that he's spending four seconds doing nothing but waving his arms around and chanting an incantation. Arena Master has every right to presume hostile intent and an opportunity to respond in kind, but should his attack or manipulation of the arena resolve before or after the Dimension Door finishes? Roll initiative to find out. Arena Master wins and can respond to a spell beginning to be cast. However, the spell hasn't finished, the fighter is still down below, and the Arena Master has no idea what the spell in question will actually do since he hasn't heard enough of it yet to be able to identify it. All he knows is the fighter is up to something and he has a chance to try to interfere with it. Again, no precognition necessary.
Alright, I know I rolled low initiative on getting into this thread, but here's my two coppers:
"Surprise" in a PF mechanics sense to me means one side is unaware of the other. This is distinct from the adjective of "surprising" in the sense that suddenly deciding to draw a weapon or cast a spell might catch people off guard. The latter case might help that player on their initiative roll, either in the form of a direct bonus or the choice of a more favorable ability modifier. It should not, however, let them completely get the jump on whoever they're attacking.
The purpose of initiative is to determine how quickly people can react to a situation going south, and it is entirely possible for the "reactive" party to realize they're in imminent danger and act accordingly. If you were to throw a punch at me in real life, I would see your fist clench and your arm wind up. I would hope I wouldn't have to let your fist make contact with my face before I get the chance to try to dodge, block, or run away. Initiative exists to capture this idea.
In the case of actual surprise due to failing to detect someone using Stealth, I'd probably allow the sneaking player or side to get one action off before rolling initiative, as the unaware side has no chance to respond until that hostile action is taken. I guess that amounts to the sort of surprise round PF2 was trying to get rid of, but I'm willing to reward players for making the extra effort to catch their opponents completely unaware. I would not do that for simply being the player with the shortest patience for negotiation.
If you are willing to give someone a surprise round when that is simply not a thing in pf2, what then is wrong in assuming that "initiative order" was happening all along and resolving everyone's actions as you would in any other round?
And having been punched in the face before, and being no slouch when fisticuffs are in order if I do say so myself, the idea that you will be able to react in time to do anything about a sudden punch is hilarious. At best you can reflexively dodge or try to block. What in pf2 would be a reaction in fact. You definitely would not have time to take a "turn" worth of actions, no matter who you are.
To your first point: mechanically, nothing. It is the GM's right to call for initiative any time they think it would be of value, and keep the same initiative as long as maintaining encounter mode is still warranted. However, it seems somewhat against the spirit of initiative to allow a roll for a social encounter to dictate the order for a combat one when things turn ugly. Especially because that gives the side who wants to initiate hostilities a tremendous amount of control over when to begin.
Let me propose a worst-case scenario: say a party goes into a social encounter with the full intent to launch an all-out attack when the moment presents itself. They plan beforehand who will strike the first blow. During the discussion, every other player strategically takes the delay action to ensure that every player goes in order after the agreed-upon combat initiator. Once this is done, that player opens hostilities, and the entire party gets all of their turns before any opponent is able to react. Technically legal by mechanics? Yes. But I refuse to believe this is a scenario the rules are intended to allow, let alone encourage.
As to your second point, I would counter with this: does it make any more sense that you would get three punches (a "turn" worth of actions) before I can so much as raise my fists just because you attacked first? At a certain point realism has to cede to gameplay. Someone has to go first, and I'm a lot more comfortable having that be somewhat up in the air but favoring those with training to react quickly (an initiative roll) than having it be determined simply by whoever "decides" they want to go first, especially when that's generally a huge advantage. As a player, I would not want to encourage my GM to start "deciding" to put all their monsters ahead of my party.
The "spirit" of initiative is an odd thing to argue for, since initiative is only there to establish turn order.
To your worst case scenario, I have no problem with that. Pf2 so far hasn't felt nearly as swingy as pf1, my party has had more fights go to the 5th or 6th round in this edition than in virtually any other game. Nothing is stopping the party from grouping their turns on any other round, so why not prior to combat?
For the second point, essentially we are at an impasse. I believe the advantage of surprise should go to the initiator, every time. Action beats reaction.
I won't tell you that you are wrong for running combats the way you do, only that I disagree with it.
But just consider the ramifications of allowing players or creatures to react based on information they shouldn't have.
If your initiative means you know hostilities are going to start this second, then why can't the top of initiative player ask the Gm what each creature going after them is going to do? Follows the same logic, but is far more exploitative than going first.
A slight revelation from another thread, and I can't edit my last post so sorry for the double post.
Stealth used as Initiative does determine how difficult you are to detect. But you compare that Stealth Initiative check to each opponents Perception DC and not their Perception Initiative result.
If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of
an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a
Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see
if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as
normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).
So the stealth Archer example. How do you now run that encounter? Assume the Stealth Archer loses initiative to at least one opponent. Does that opponent realize that combat has started and begin hostilities? Or do they go about their business unaware as I have been advocating?
Edit: This also confirms my supposition that Initiative checks generally do not have the effects of their related skill. Stealth specifically is an exception. Otherwise you would be comparing Perception Ini rolls to Stealth Ini rolls.
The reason only the stealth roll matters is because pf2 only does rolls versus a dc. To note though if the archers adversaries were actively searching they would get a roll.
As for what would occur that depends. Enemies would carry on what they were doing, which may involve seek checks. Players I would give them heroicnliscence and say they feel something is up.
That was in reference to a previous example: A rogue in a tree hidden Unobserved (successfully) from enemies while the party negotiates with them. When that Rogue decides to take his shot, what happens if some of the "enemies" beat him in initiative.
One answer was, if they beat him in initiative, they beat his Stealth check, so notice him. That is not true. You still compare Stealth to the Perception DC of any given creature. And we know that the Rogue already beat the opponents Perception DC to be hidden in the tree in the first place.
So do the enemies somehow become aware of the Rogue prior to his shot and get their full turns against the party? Or do they continue on with whatever they were doing until the Rogue's place in Initiative when combat actually begins?
The reason only the stealth roll matters is because pf2 only does rolls versus a dc. To note though if the archers adversaries were actively searching they would get a roll.
As for what would occur that depends. Enemies would carry on what they were doing, which may involve seek checks. Players I would give them heroicnliscence and say they feel something is up.
That was in reference to a previous example: A rogue in a tree
hiddenUnobserved (successfully) from enemies while the party negotiates with them. When that Rogue decides to take his shot, what happens if some of the "enemies" beat him in initiative.One answer was, if they beat him in initiative, they beat his Stealth check, so notice him. That is not true. You still compare Stealth to the Perception DC of any given creature. And we know that the Rogue already beat the opponents Perception DC to be hidden in the tree in the first place.
So do the enemies somehow become aware of the Rogue prior to his shot and get their full turns against the party? Or do they continue on with whatever they were doing until the Rogue's place in Initiative when combat actually begins?
Continue doing whatever they were doing. If they were scanning the surroundings that might be a seek and ready, if they are cautious about the other players that could be a ready, if they are tense but defensive a ready might be appropriate.
If they are confident and have no concerns then doing nothing is appropriate.
The reason only the stealth roll matters is because pf2 only does rolls versus a dc. To note though if the archers adversaries were actively searching they would get a roll.
As for what would occur that depends. Enemies would carry on what they were doing, which may involve seek checks. Players I would give them heroicnliscence and say they feel something is up.
That was in reference to a previous example: A rogue in a tree
hiddenUnobserved (successfully) from enemies while the party negotiates with them. When that Rogue decides to take his shot, what happens if some of the "enemies" beat him in initiative.One answer was, if they beat him in initiative, they beat his Stealth check, so notice him. That is not true. You still compare Stealth to the Perception DC of any given creature. And we know that the Rogue already beat the opponents Perception DC to be hidden in the tree in the first place.
So do the enemies somehow become aware of the Rogue prior to his shot and get their full turns against the party? Or do they continue on with whatever they were doing until the Rogue's place in Initiative when combat actually begins?
Continue doing whatever they were doing. If they were scanning the surroundings that might be a seek and ready, if they are cautious about the other players that could be a ready, if they are tense but defensive a ready might be appropriate.
If they are confident and have no concerns then doing nothing is appropriate.
Sweet. So how about the original Barbarian example? If the Rogue gets to make a sneak attack on his turn in initiative, then why shouldn't the Barbarian be able to make a sudden attack on his own initiative spot?
You could make the argument that the Rogue has several elements in his favor, being unobserved for example. But that isn't the point I was trying to make. If that resolution of events makes sense in that specific situation, why wouldn't the same logic apply to other similar examples, like a Barbarian who is sick of diplomacy.
There is 0 support for the idea that any character ever telegraphs their intentions prior to their turn in initiative. Even Sense Motive requires a critical success to be able to discern a creatures "true intentions".
So why should anyone be able to act in combat before that Barbarian, if he is the first to decide to strike? At best they could use a Reaction, if they had one with the proper trigger like a readied action waiting for a hostile action.
Ok, here another set of examples for the "no-surprise-round and highest-initiative-must-have-a-chance-to-react" crowd to judge:
Example 1: The party has picked up a NPC rogue as a companion. Unknown to them that NPC is a traitor and secrectly payed by the bad guy.
Scenario A1) While the party is already fighting said bad guy the NPC decides that on his initiative it is time to stab the party mage in the back. This "surprise attack" will succed 100% of the time (not attack roll or outcome but he will at last be 100% able to try) and regardless of initiative rolls.
Scenario B1) While walking down the hallway to the room where the bad guy is waiting for the party the NPC decides that now is the time to stab the party mage in the back. Rogue rolls bad initiative and never actually had the chance to do anything except die.
Example 2: The party Bard is negotiating with a Dragon. However the party Monk and Barbarian want to loot the hoard instead of going for a peaceful solution.
Scenario A2) Monk and Barbarian bluntly announce that they want to attack. Everybody rolls initiative, Dragon wins and incinerates them all.
Scenario B2) Monk and Barbarian know that the exploration mode initiative rules are wonky and call for a fist fight in between them instead: "Negotations are boring, we want to do a training match, so lets go into initiative order". Dragon wins initiative and though irritated by the fist fight happening in the background finally decides to continue negotiations with the Bard when it is his turn. On their turn and after the Dragon has acted both Monk and Barbarian attack the Dragon.
Note that examples and fictive scenarios are ***wastly*** exeggerated (especially the last one of course) in order to emphasize the huge discrepancy in beween "acting surprisingly" in encounter and exploration mode when correctly applying the current set of rules.
As far as I am concerned if you can be surprised has nothing to do if you are aware of the other (in game term it does though) but if you are aware or expecting said surprise. Negotiation in between two unfriedly/hostile parties? Roll for highest initiative alright. Grandma pulls a gun on you while you are at her table eating bisquits? Thats what I call a surprise.
Yes, but that would generally be considered the incorrect way to run it.
You're trying to make a scenario to reinforce your position, but the situation simply shouldn't exist.
In a combat situation you should definitely be in Encounter mode, in scenario A you're already in combat.
Okay, I'm going to have to blame my non-native english here, because I have no idea what you're talking about?! There's likely some kind of misunderstanding...
Scenario A is happening in encounter mode throughout. It starts in encounter mode and doesn't leave it. How is that the incorrect way to run it? It has obviously entered encounter mode some time before, likely at the start of combat, but that's not the relevant phase for the action we're talking about.
Scenario A is there to contrast scenario B which starts in exploration mode and switches to encounter mode in a similar setting.
That switch is where the root cause of the problem lies. In scenario A, the surprising action happens in one of several rounds in initiative order, while in scenario B the surprising action happens at the start of, i.e. the beginning of the first round of the initiative order. You asked for an example of such a case, I've provided one.
With circumstances being otherwise extremely similar, I don't see why in one case we should assume the possibility of some form of precognition, while in the other we don't.
Sorry for the confusion.
What I'm saying is that scenario A and B are really the same scenario, it's just that scenario A is what happens in the middle of combat and scenario B is what happens when you transition from Exploration Mode to Encounter Mode.
But scenario A isn't "real" because in this scenario combat has already started and the enemy isn't "surprised" by combat starting, because it's already been happening.
What I'm saying is it's incorrect to be in Encounter mode before hostilities actually begin.*
*There are sometimes when you need the time tracking of Encounter mode outside of combat, but those are rare and stumbling into an arena and talking to someone isn't yet Encounter mode. When one side starts hostilities that's when you switch from Exploration to Encounter.
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That was in reference to a previous example: A rogue in a tree
hiddenUnobserved (successfully) from enemies while the party negotiates with them. When that Rogue decides to take his shot, what happens if some of the "enemies" beat him in initiative.One answer was, if they beat him in initiative, they beat his Stealth check, so notice him. That is not true. You still compare Stealth to the Perception DC of any given creature. And we know that the Rogue already beat the opponents Perception DC to be hidden in the tree in the first place.
So do the enemies somehow become aware of the Rogue prior to his shot and get their full turns against the party? Or do they continue on with whatever they were doing until the Rogue's place in Initiative when combat actually begins?
Continue doing whatever they were doing. If they were scanning the surroundings that might be a seek and ready, if they are cautious about the other players that could be a ready, if they are tense but defensive a ready might be appropriate.
If they are confident and have no concerns then doing nothing is appropriate.
Sweet. So how about the original Barbarian example? If the Rogue gets to make a sneak attack on his turn in initiative, then why shouldn't the Barbarian be able to make a sudden attack on his own initiative spot?
You could make the argument that the Rogue has several elements in his favor, being unobserved for example. But that isn't the point I was trying to make. If that resolution of events makes sense in that specific situation, why...
Well yes, but the difference IS that the barbarian isn't unnoticed. Other people can read the room and decide how on edge they are. They shouldn't be run as "oh barbarian is aggressive we attack now" but they should 100% be run as "take one step and we will kill you" and then delay or draw weapons and ready actions.
Or particularly hostile people could attack in response to the barbarian making hostile actions.The barbarian making a deception check and beating their perception DC's as their initiative roll absolutely acts with the same benefits of the rogue and takes then unaware though.
But otherwise it is just a matter of the barbarian rolling athletics vs perception to show how fast their physical reflexes allow them to start in the combat.
Personally, in keeping with minimizing rolls, I would allow a non-rogue to use their deception initiative roll as a feint... But they'd have to use an action to actually feint and thus make the enemy flat-footed to their first attack. ( Assuming they rolled high.) Basically it is an auto success on that check.
Meanwhile, a rogue with surprise attack using deception for initiative would not need to spend an action and treats them as flat-footed for all attacks that turn. Thus the class feature still retains value, but someone who just catches someone off guard gets a benefit too.
Why require a Deception? The barbarian isn't being deceptive. He is being aggressive, and likely has been.
When I run social encounters, I encourage each party member to take part. If the Barbarian is intimidating for instance, what is the real difference between him blustering at the big bads guards with his axe, and him actually making an attack?
Perhaps the guards are more likely to ready actions to strike at the Barbarian after he uses intimidate, that I won't dispute and is up to the GM at the table to decide, but there is still nothing that indicates that his intention to attack is ever communicated to the enemies prior to his action actually taking place.
So even if you don't believe in being in Encounter mode prior to hostilities under any circumstances, which is silly, you still find yourself in a situation where anyone who beat the Barbarian in Initiative can't really act on their turn, not without being the one who disrupts the "negotiations". If negotiations were happening, there was at least a tenuous cease fire, right? So why would the mooks or the big bad break that cease fire before the Barbarian attacks?
Alright, clearly the conversation moved on without me here. I'm gonna try to jump back in, and separate my thoughts into a few posts to avoid walls of text. Hopefully I don't get ninja'd too bad in between.
First of all I want to get this out of the way:
I won't tell you that you are wrong for running combats the way you do, only that I disagree with it.
Same goes to you. I think we're in agreement that both options are valid under the rules, they just come from different philosophies.
The "spirit" of initiative is an odd thing to argue for, since initiative is only there to establish turn order.
Here I disagree somewhat. Initiative the roll is a method of determining turn order. Initiative the "skill" represents a character's training and ability to quickly assess a situation and respond to it. That's why it's usually tied to Perception in this edition. Having good initiative is supposed to benefit a player, and is something to work towards improving in its own right.
If initiative is rolled only at the beginning of combat, then a high initiative is always rewarded. If initiative is established ahead of time and combat begins with the first Strike action, then those with better initiative modifiers than the attacker are effectively punished. This seems directly contradictory to its intended purpose.
To your worst case scenario, I have no problem with that. Pf2 so far hasn't felt nearly as swingy as pf1, my party has had more fights go to the 5th or 6th round in this edition than in virtually any other game. Nothing is stopping the party from grouping their turns on any other round, so why not prior to combat?
Here's the difference: when players choose to delay during combat, there's an opportunity cost to allowing an opponent to take their turn ahead of you. It might be useful to do so to allow an ally to get into position or set up a combo of some kind, but there is a risk required to get that reward. If players can instead set up such a combo before the fight actually begins, they get all the reward without any risk since there was never any danger of being attacked during the opponent's "turn". Your group may have no issue with that and that's fine, but to me that presents a serious game balance issue.
If your initiative means you know hostilities are going to start this second, then why can't the top of initiative player ask the Gm what each creature going after them is going to do? Follows the same logic, but is far more exploitative than going first.
...Because no sane GM would ever give out that information? You kinda lost me here. All an initiative roll tells you is "(chuckles) I'm in danger!" You know the people in front of you intend to do you harm and probably should respond in kind. It gives you nothing about the actual tactics your opponents are about to use, and I don't think anyone here has argued it should. At the most, you get "The barbarian is drawing his weapon" or "The sorcerer is casting a spell." Neither of these is much to go off of in terms of giving you a tactical advantage, but at least it lets you do something other than wait around till you actually take damage before you're allowed to jump into the action.
If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).So the stealth Archer example. How do you now run that encounter? Assume the Stealth Archer loses initiative to at least one opponent. Does that opponent realize that combat has started and begin hostilities? Or do they go about their business unaware as I have been advocating?
That depends. If the stealth archer is alone, have they been spotted? If not, combat hasn't started and therefore we likely aren't in an initiative order yet. That wouldn't happen until one guard does spot the archer, or the archer chooses to break cover and attack. In the former, simply roll initiative normally. If the guard wins, he can warn his allies and attack, and if not, the archer gets a chance to take out the guard before he can point the archer out to his companions. If the archer isn't spotted at all, I'd allow them a free Strike action, then call for initiative with the firing of that first arrow as the event that triggers the start of combat.
If the archer is part of a party that is also moving in, then the guards already have a threat to respond to. Call for initiative, and that way even if none of the guards have spotted the archer they at least have other targets they can spend their turns attacking until the archer reveals themselves by shooting. No one loses a turn for "rolling too high" or needs to be given "spidey senses" about a hidden threat.
The "spirit" of initiative is an odd thing to argue for, since initiative is only there to establish turn order.Here I disagree somewhat. Initiative the roll is a method of determining turn order. Initiative the "skill" represents a character's training and ability to quickly assess a situation and respond to it. That's why it's usually tied to Perception in this edition. Having good initiative is supposed to benefit a player, and is something to work towards improving in its own right.
If initiative is rolled only at the beginning of combat, then a high initiative is always rewarded. If initiative is established ahead of time and combat begins with the first Strike action, then those with better initiative modifiers than the attacker are effectively punished. This seems directly contradictory to its intended purpose.
And this is one of my biggest issues: The first in Initiative should only be rewarded in an equal sum scenario. If both parties know that they are in combat then yes, the person higher in initiative order should be rewarded. If however they are successfully "tricked" or surprised then they are punished. Smart play should be rewarded, and equally "dumb" play should be punished.
To me there is an inherent benefit to "Surprise". While the classic Surprise Round is gone the rules do allow for what amounts to essentially a Surprise Round, after all the circumstances necessary to qualify for a Surprise round still make a good case for altering the timing of the start of combat. The rogue in the tree or the Barbarian in the negotiations are both the first characters to decide to attack, regardless of their place in Initiative. If they've found themselves in a situation where they can "seize the initiative this way" and do so, why shouldn't they go first? Again, there are 0 rules for telegraphing intentions, you are adding that. But that is a troublesome mechanic to add to the game.
Players can only mess with the initiative order in this way when they successfully ambush or surprise an enemy. Not every combat is going to happen that way, and indeed many times it should be the party that is surprised. There was risk involved, unless you run your monsters as blind and mindless, the party had to get in position to effectively perform an ambush. Even the Barbarian is taking a risk; as I've noted the Barbarian is still susceptible to Readied actions. In the case of tense negotiations it is not unfair to assume that body guards are ready and waiting for hostilities to begin. This should not mean that they get their entire turn, they are not actively trying to start the combat, but they should be ready to engage whoever does begin.To your worst case scenario, I have no problem with that. Pf2 so far hasn't felt nearly as swingy as pf1, my party has had more fights go to the 5th or 6th round in this edition than in virtually any other game. Nothing is stopping the party from grouping their turns on any other round, so why not prior to combat?Here's the difference: when players choose to delay during combat, there's an opportunity cost to allowing an opponent to take their turn ahead of you. It might be useful to do so to allow an ally to get into position or set up a combo of some kind, but there is a risk required to get that reward. If players can instead set up such a combo before the fight actually begins, they get all the reward without any risk since there was never any danger of being attacked during the opponent's "turn". Your group may have no issue with that and that's fine, but to me that presents a serious game balance issue.
If your initiative means you know hostilities are going to start this second, then why can't the top of initiative player ask the Gm what each creature going after them is going to do? Follows the same logic, but is far more exploitative than going first....Because no sane GM would ever give out that information? You kinda lost me here. All an initiative roll tells you is "(chuckles) I'm in danger!" You know the people in front of you intend to do you harm and probably should respond in kind. It gives you nothing about the actual tactics your opponents are about to use, and I don't think anyone here has argued it should. At the most, you get "The barbarian is drawing his weapon" or "The sorcerer is casting a spell." Neither of these is much to go off of in terms of giving you a tactical advantage, but at least it lets you do something other than wait around till you actually take damage before you're allowed to jump into the action.
It's simple really. If you are willing to say that the Barbarian is somehow telegraphing his intent enough for characters who were previously willing to talk to him to deduce that he is going to attack, and respond before he ever has a chance to begin that attack, then what is stopping a player from requesting that same information about any other creature in any other mode of play?
Information is a 2 way street. If you as a GM allow NPC's to know when I intend to do them harm, then I expect the same information in any situation where it could be important.
"Is the archer going to shoot me, or the wizard?" Why shouldn't you give this information out, the archer is probably aiming right?
"Is the big bad going to run?" If the big bad is going to run, it should be obvious right? He should already be turning around since everything is happening "simultaneously".
Telegraphing is not a thing. Initiative generally provides no benefit besides establishing your place in initiative order. If one party or the other successfully begins combat inside of that turn order, as in the examples up thread, then they should essentially "act first".
If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results).So the stealth Archer example. How do you now run that encounter? Assume the Stealth Archer loses initiative to at least one opponent. Does that opponent realize that combat has started and begin hostilities? Or do they go about their business unaware as I have been advocating?That depends. If the stealth archer is alone, have they been spotted? If not, combat hasn't started and therefore we likely aren't in an initiative order yet. That wouldn't happen until one guard does spot the archer, or the archer chooses to break cover and attack. In the former, simply roll initiative normally. If the guard wins, he can warn his allies and attack, and if not, the archer gets a chance to take out the guard before he can point the archer out to his companions. If the archer isn't spotted at all, I'd allow them a free Strike action, then call for initiative with the firing of that first arrow as the event that triggers the start of combat.
If the archer is part of a party that is also moving in, then the guards already have a threat to respond to. Call for initiative, and that way even if none of the guards have spotted the archer they at least have other targets they can spend their turns attacking until the archer reveals themselves by shooting. No one loses a turn for "rolling too high" or needs to be given "spidey senses" about a hidden threat.
The actual example was a "negotiation" happening with the guards, meaning that they are not currently hostile. That is not an unreasonable scenario. As long as they aren't monsters, even bandits would probably question a group of adventurers walking towards their camp before just attacking them. During that period we find ourselves in a situation that allows the Rogue to act first, even if they rolled lower in initiative.
And this is another point of contention: I am strictly against "free actions" for surprise rounds. That I believe is what PF2 was really trying to get away from.
To me everything is really happening in Encounter mode all the time. Exploration mode is just sped up to allow you to cover more ground and deal with less of the minutia of moving your characters around. When a situation becomes dangerous, then we are supposed to "move" to encounter mode, but really we aren't moving to a new time, we are just slowing down to "encounter time". Starting an encounter as though it is a fresh new instance doesn't make any sense in reality.
Sweet. So how about the original Barbarian example? If the Rogue gets to make a sneak attack on his turn in initiative, then why shouldn't the Barbarian be able to make a sudden attack on his own initiative spot?
You could make the argument that the Rogue has several elements in his favor, being unobserved for example. But that isn't the point I was trying to make. If that resolution of events makes sense in that specific situation, why...
Well yes, but the difference IS that the barbarian isn't unnoticed. Other people can read the room and decide how on edge they are. They shouldn't be run as "oh barbarian is aggressive we attack now" but they should 100% be run as "take one step and we will kill you" and then delay or draw weapons and ready actions.
Or particularly hostile people could attack in response to the barbarian making hostile actions.
Exactly. The moment the barbarian goes for his weapon, combat is fair game and initiative is called for to see who reacts first. I'd probably let the barbarian finish drawing his weapon before rolling, maybe even let him step in, but after that everyone else gets a chance to intervene.
Particularly nice guards might note that they haven't been directly attacked (yet), and merely ready an action to Strike if the barbarian does and order him to step down. Less morally upstanding adversaries are more than welcome to make attacks of their own. Allies should get the chance to try to pull the barbarian back (if they want to try to restore negotiations) or blast enemies out of the barbarian's way (if the conversation really has broken down). And if the barbarian does win initiative, then heads can start to fly. But he needs to earn it by getting the highest roll, not by simply declaring he wants to start swinging.
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Sweet. So how about the original Barbarian example? If the Rogue gets to make a sneak attack on his turn in initiative, then why shouldn't the Barbarian be able to make a sudden attack on his own initiative spot?
You could make the argument that the Rogue has several elements in his favor, being unobserved for example. But that isn't the point I was trying to make. If that resolution of events makes sense in that specific situation, why...
Well yes, but the difference IS that the barbarian isn't unnoticed. Other people can read the room and decide how on edge they are. They shouldn't be run as "oh barbarian is aggressive we attack now" but they should 100% be run as "take one step and we will kill you" and then delay or draw weapons and ready actions.
Or particularly hostile people could attack in response to the barbarian making hostile actions.Exactly. The moment the barbarian goes for his weapon, combat is fair game and initiative is called for to see who reacts first. I'd probably let the barbarian finish drawing his weapon before rolling, maybe even let him step in, but after that everyone else gets a chance to intervene.
Particularly nice guards might note that they haven't been directly attacked (yet), and merely ready an action to Strike if the barbarian does and order him to step down. Less morally upstanding adversaries are more than welcome to make attacks of their own. Allies should get the chance to try to pull the barbarian back (if they want to try to restore negotiations) or blast enemies out of the barbarian's way (if the conversation really has broken down). And if the barbarian does win initiative, then heads can start to fly. But he needs to earn it by getting the highest roll, not by simply declaring he wants to start swinging.
Rolling a single die higher than others is not "earning" anything. Forcing the opponents into a position where they are at a disadvantage is "earning" the right to strike first.
You are essentially allowing anyone who rolled higher in initiative the benefit of treating their entire turn as a reaction, then allowing them their actual reactions on top. Argue however you wish, but that is what you are doing.
Hostilities had not started until that Barbarian swung. Not decided to swing, swung. Stopping his turn mid way, or part way is not supported by the rules. So letting him "step in" then immediately letting X number of other creatures take their full turns before he finishes his action is a house rule at best. And not one I agree with.
To beowulf99:
I could go through your last couple replies and attempt to refute them as I go, but I don't think that's going to get us anywhere. I don't mean that as an attack, I just think we've made our respective cases clear and neither of us is likely to convince the other to change their mind since we're operating under fundamentally different philosophies to how we run our games:
To me everything is really happening in Encounter mode all the time. Exploration mode is just sped up to allow you to cover more ground and deal with less of the minutia of moving your characters around. When a situation becomes dangerous, then we are supposed to "move" to encounter mode, but really we aren't moving to a new time, we are just slowing down to "encounter time". Starting an encounter as though it is a fresh new instance doesn't make any sense in reality.
I believe exactly the opposite. To me everything is really happening in Exploration mode, with people making decisions and doing things in real time, simultaneously. Encounter mode exists solely to provide a clear way for rules to govern what happens when a lot of things are going on in a short span of time, like combat. As has been pointed out, they can lead to situations that don't make sense in the real world because we're forcing people to take turns in a game rather than actually simulating how a real-time fight would play out.
Because of this, I try to stay in Exploration mode until the last possible moment, precisely because Encounter mode is not a good way of describing what "actually happens". This is why I almost never call for initiative except at the exact moment combat starts. At that point, initiative represents every character's ability to collect their bearings, read the room, and jump into the fray. From then on, Pathfinder really becomes a board game where mechanics and balance become most important, as we've already thrown realism out the window by introducing a turn structure.
This is why I don't like the idea of allowing the first person to make a move to be the first to get a whole turn. It doesn't make sense in a real-world scenario, since making one attack shouldn't entitle you to two more before anyone else gets a chance to do anything; people would be jumping in all at once. It also is not a balanced gameplay mechanic, as it allows a party to manipulate the initiative order before turns begin.
I can see why viewing turns as the default structure of Pathfinder would lead you to your conclusions. That's just not the baseline view of the game I assume, and I don't think there's anything more I can really add here unless there's another specific example people want to discuss. Otherwise, I'm probably out. Hopefully this discussion helped anyone else trying to figure out how they want to run their games.
You round a corner. Behind it is a guard with a crossbow. Neither side has been aware of each other until this very moment. However the guard has its crossbow raised, loaded and is already aiming at that very corner.
You roll high and earn the right to act first.
You use one action to retrieve your own crossbow from your backpack. Then you load it with your second action. With your third and final action you shoot the guard and kill it.
Well done Mr. Anderson.
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What I'm saying is that scenario A and B are really the same scenario, it's just that scenario A is what happens in the middle of combat and scenario B is what happens when you transition from Exploration Mode to Encounter Mode.
But scenario A isn't "real" because in this scenario combat has already started and the enemy isn't "surprised" by combat starting, because it's already been happening.
What I'm saying is it's incorrect to be in Encounter mode before hostilities actually begin.*
*There are sometimes when you need the time tracking of Encounter mode outside of combat, but those are rare and stumbling into an arena and talking to someone isn't yet Encounter mode. When one side starts hostilities that's when you switch from Exploration to Encounter.
I agree, the two are pretty much identical. As such, I'd argue that they should have similar consequences. The arena master is surprised by the dude suddenly appearing next to him just the same, whether he was previously in encounter mode /combat in the arena below, or in exploration mode, but doing the exact same thing (i.e. standing next to the cleric, being healed whle casting a spell).
However, merely due to the mechanical backbone of either already being in encounter mode or of switching into encounter mode at that very moment, the same story potentially plays out very differently. Which it shouldn't. In both scenarios A and B the story should ultimately unfold the same way and not be severly impacted by the artifical construct of the different game modes.
(Edit: moved some text to next post, as it's a somewhat different issue)
We can also add some more alternatives (based on Scenario B, starting in exploration mode):
Scenario B1: The fighter/sorcerer casts dimension door as above.
Scenario B2: The fighter/sorcerer isn't trying to attack the arena master and casts a 2-action heal on the cleric instead.
In scenario B1 we switch to encounter mode, the arena master wins initiative as before, and on his turn triggers an arena hazard which interupts the spell.
In scenario B2 we stay in exploration mode as heal is not a hostile action and noone is attempting to initiate combat. He's just returning the favor to the cleric and healing him as well. No arena hazard is triggered.
Both subscenarios involve the fighter/sorcerer casting a 2-action spell. The arena master doesn't know which spells are being cast, he's letting the wizard cast detect magic and the cleric cast heal, why should he get to react any differently to the figther/sorcerer in B1 than B2 when to his eyes it's the exact same actions?? You're granting the arena master the benefit of some auto-succeeding sense motive to allow him to detect the threat ahead of time.
The only logical way of handling a situation like this is by letting the character who does the surprising thing go first. Whether this means rolling initiative and then having every character or NPS act like they don't know what's coming up until the fighter/sorcerer actually does his thing (my preferred version), or it means giving the acting character a free turn ahead of rolling initiative.
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Party kicks down a door
DM: "Within this room you see a creatur--"
Fighter: "I attack it"
DM: "Curses! You've spoken first! Congratulations, you are first in initiative."
---
Party, walking in the forest, suddenly comes across a lovely unicorn
DM: "On the path, wading in the pool, is a--"
Wizard: "MAGIC MISSILE!"
Fighter: "NO I THROW MY AXE!"
DM: "Wizard you spoke a split second before Fighter, congratulations you're first!"
Fighter: "But--"
Rogue: "Why did I take Incredible Initiative...?"
This is getting silly. Roll initiative, massage it how you want, make up whatever contrived circumstance. I'm out
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Why require a Deception? The barbarian isn't being deceptive. He is being aggressive, and likely has been.
When I run social encounters, I encourage each party member to take part. If the Barbarian is intimidating for instance, what is the real difference between him blustering at the big bads guards with his axe, and him actually making an attack?
Perhaps the guards are more likely to ready actions to strike at the Barbarian after he uses intimidate, that I won't dispute and is up to the GM at the table to decide, but there is still nothing that indicates that his intention to attack is ever communicated to the enemies prior to his action actually taking place.
So even if you don't believe in being in Encounter mode prior to hostilities under any circumstances, which is silly, you still find yourself in a situation where anyone who beat the Barbarian in Initiative can't really act on their turn, not without being the one who disrupts the "negotiations". If negotiations were happening, there was at least a tenuous cease fire, right? So why would the mooks or the big bad break that cease fire before the Barbarian attacks?
Because if the barbarian isn't hiding their intent there is NO reason for them to get any benefits of surprise in charging across the room. Everything is out in the open.
Yes... the rolling for initative is the part when he has communicated his intent. That is the point everyone has been making.
I think you are so focused on defending your point that you are failing to look at where your issues have been directly addressed time and time again.
I can get someone not liking handling it in a certain way, but you keep suggesting people are saying things that they aren't.
Hostilities had not started until that Barbarian swung. Not decided to swing, swung. Stopping his turn mid way, or part way is not supported by the rules. So letting him "step in" then immediately letting X number of other creatures take their full turns before he finishes his action is a house rule at best. And not one I agree with.
Except it's not a house rule. This is the exact example used on page 498 of the core rulebook example 3 under rolling initiative. To claim that doing exactly what the CRB states is somehow a "house-rule" is
absolutely baffling. Replace the word "Merisiel" with "Barbarian".
Merisiel and Kyra are negotiating with the kobold
king. Things aren’t going well, so Merisiel decides
to launch a surprise attack. As soon as she says
this is her plan, you call for initiative.
Dope, that makes sense to me. What it doesn't say is that if the Kobold King rolls a higher initiative roll, that he can just assume that Marisiel is going to launch her attack. Or that he can tell based on her body language and his highly refined sense of smell that she is preparing to attack.
My point is that a creature cannot act on "future" information. If Marisiel in that example goes after the Kobold king, the only logical action the Kobold king has on his turn is to continue the Negotiation.
Or are you assuming that when initiative is rolled, battle music starts playing and everyone knows they are in combat?
Dope, that makes sense to me. What it doesn't say is that if the Kobold King rolls a higher initiative roll, that he can just assume that Marisiel is going to launch her attack. Or that he can tell based on her body language and his highly refined sense of smell that she is preparing to attack.
My point is that a creature cannot act on "future" information. If Marisiel in that example goes after the Kobold king, the only logical action the Kobold king has on his turn is to continue the Negotiation.
Or are you assuming that when initiative is rolled, battle music starts playing and everyone knows they are in combat?
It means exactly what everyone has been saying, initiative is your ability to read and react to the situation as it is unfolding, realize you are in eminent (immediate future danger), recognize where the danger is coming from and respond. This is the reason given in the rulebook for it generally being a perception check.
The main fallacy in your thinking is they are "acting on future information" creating this apparent time paradox. Actions are not ever happening one at a time, and they do not complete as soon as they begin. This is the abstraction the system makes when fractions of a second suddenly become very important. Initiative is meant to capture these split second differences in everyone's reaction time when the situation changes.
What is really happening is the barbarian begins moving toward the target, someone with split second better reflexes accesses the situation are responds, possibly dropping him mid attack and his weapon falls from his cold dead hands clattering across the floor.
The turn by turn abstraction is a huge abstraction to resolve sequentially things which aren't sequential. Tying everyone to an initiative order before combat begins, denies that some people assess and respond more rapidly to perceive threats, which is exactly what initiative is designed to represent. If you run non combat encounters in initiative...
And in the Barbarian situation, nothing has happened until he has had a turn to draw his axe and attack. If the guards attack him first, well they have actually initiated the combat, not the Barbarian, which is sorta stealing from the Barbarian player at that point, isn't it?
If the intention of the rules was to only ever have tense social interactions happen in Exploration mode, then why include rules for Social Encounters in encounter mode?
You can't react to something that hasn't happened. You keep insisting that because Initiative has been rolled the Barbarian is already in process of attacking, and somehow multiple creatures can fill entire turns worth of actions into that time. But that just isn't true.
Until the Barbarian attacks, there is no combat. If there is no combat, everyone else continues what they were doing.
This situation is atypical in that both sides are fully aware of each other. They have a protracted period of peace while negotiations are happening. During that time it is entirely possible that someone, in this case a Barbarian, will initiate combat. We have 0 rules for "telegraphing intent". Drawing a weapon is an action. Movement is an action. A strike is an action. Actions are not free.
The Barbarian could only begin combat on his turn, by drawing his weapon then striking with it. And you can't interrupt his turn with anything but a reaction.
In an equal setting you would be correct. If both parties just walked into a room and were already hostile, then whoever was at the top of the initiative would get to go first. But this is not that scenario. Everyone is aware of each other. They spend multiple minutes actively not killing each other.
Then one of them changes that. He strikes. The only thing fast enough to engage him would be a readied action, a reaction.
If you delayed, you would be too late since you reinsert yourself into the initiative order after another person, likely the barbarian, ends their turn.
You can run it how you wish. This is what makes the most sense to me. And it is fully within the scope of the rules as I see it.
RAW combat begins when the barbarian decides to attack, and everyone rolls initiative. But run it however you want.
Sure. But what information does anybody but the Barbarian use to decide what actions to take?
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RAW combat begins when the barbarian decides to attack, and everyone rolls initiative. But run it however you want.Sure. But what information does anybody but the Barbarian use to decide what actions to take?
The barbarian is taking hostile action. Full stop.
If he wasn't, initiative wouldn't have been rolled in the first place. It's not a time paradox, but a rules abstraction that allows us to get on with the game.