Clay Golem: Confusing wording and effect (and magic immunity question)


Rules Discussion


The Clay Golem's cursed wound ability reads:

Quote:

Cursed Wound (divine, curse, necromancy) A creature hit by the clay golem’s fist must succeed at a DC 29 Fortitude save or be cursed until healed to its maximum HP. The cursed creature can’t regain HP except via magic, and anyone casting a spell to heal the creature must succeed at a DC 29 counteract check or the healing has no effect. The golem’s counteract level is equal to its creature level.

This is confusing in two ways:

a) does "succeed at a DC 29 counteract check" mean to actually meet the conditions to counteract a DC 29 effect (which, if the PC is less than level 10, would require a critical success - and thus a result of 39 - because of the golem's counteract level 10), or just to roll a check modified by casting proficiency (ie, the kind of check used for counteracting) and exceed DC 29?

b) Cursed Wound has the trait "curse". The Afflictions section of the Core Rulebook states that curses are afflictions. However Cursed Wound is not listed in the format of an Affliction (it does not have Onset time / stages / etc). Does this mean that Cursed Wound can be counteracted as if it was an affliction (albeit requiring a critical result if the PC is below level 10) or not?

c) As with all Golemn, the Clay Golem is immune to magic. Can the Clay Golem be the "enemy" target of a Forbidding Ward?


Be nice to get an official answer.


No, I have no official answers.

A: The difficulty of the DC is likely intentional. Cursed Wound has always been a game-changer/derailer in that way (for better or worse).
Attempting to heal someone could drain all your spells or send you on a trip to a faraway city to find the rare person who could tackle it.

At least they give you a Fort save this edition. :)
And thankfully it's a doable save:
+10 Level + 4 Expert +3 Con +1 Item = +18, makes it on a 9, while most frontliners should have +4 Con & Master Fortitude by then.

Unfortunately it looks like it applies to all healing, not just the wound...so oh crap if you miss that.

B: Curses can be a type of affliction, but doesn't need to be progressive, just like some poisons simply injure and have no later stages.
Oddly, Cursed Wounds mentions healing counteracts at DC 29 (Level 10 creature), not the DC for relieving the curse via Remove Curse. (Not that I know another way to determine DC.)

C. This does need an official answer since it gets a bit metaphysical in an invented world.
Yes, you can target the Clay Golem, but no, you can't effect it.
Except are you effecting it?
All the mechanics adjust the ally's stats, not the golem's, though on the flip side it's obviously tied to the golem exclusively. So the golem seems to be caught up in the effect, which it can't be, so I'd lean toward the spell not working. The spell does mention working on the actions of the golem, which pretty much seals the deal for me.

I could see an interpretation being though that you're selecting the golem so that the blessings are tuned to it, but that the blessings aren't actually interacting with the golem itself (hence the mechanical effects only going on the ally). I think that's fishing, but a GM wouldn't be breaking an explicit rule to interpret it that way.

Oh, and I have a love/hate relationship with Clay Golems mainly due to this ability.


Note that the description of the curse notes that only magical healing still works but if you use a spell you need to counteract the curse. Which leaves bringing your HP to maximum in order to break the curse using healing potions as a viable alternative as healing potions are magical but not a spell.


hyphz wrote:
The golem’s counteract level is equal to its creature level.

I think this part, right here, needs errata. Because spells have a counteract level equal to spell level.

Quote:

What you can

counteract depends on the check result and the target’s
level. If an effect is a spell, its level is the counteract level.
Otherwise, halve its level and round up to determine its
counteract level. If an effect’s level is unclear and it came
from a creature, halve and round up the creature’s level.

Note that the golem (specific overrides general) calls out its counteract level specifically being equal to its level, or twice the standard value.

Good heckin' luck casting a high enough healing spell to not auto-fail the check.

Silver Crusade

Draco18s wrote:
hyphz wrote:
The golem’s counteract level is equal to its creature level.

I think this part, right here, needs errata. Because spells have a counteract level equal to spell level.

Quote:

What you can

counteract depends on the check result and the target’s
level. If an effect is a spell, its level is the counteract level.
Otherwise, halve its level and round up to determine its
counteract level. If an effect’s level is unclear and it came
from a creature, halve and round up the creature’s level.

Note that the golem (specific overrides general) calls out its counteract level specifically being equal to its level, or twice the standard value.

Good heckin' luck casting a high enough healing spell to not auto-fail the check.

That’s only if you want to outright remove the curse. Simply healing a person has a much lower DC.

(I do believe something is off with the “counteract equal to golem level” though and that should be looked at)


Rysky wrote:
That’s only if you want to outright remove the curse. Simply healing a person has a much lower DC.

The DC is listed, and the counteract rules at least tell us what the caster adds to their roll. I'll give you that.

I'm just not sure if a "success" against that DC triggers this phrase: "Counteract the target if its counteract level is no more than 1 level higher than your effect’s counteract level."

I.e. does the healing happen once you roll a 29+, or do we have to check levels first?

Silver Crusade

Draco18s wrote:
Rysky wrote:
That’s only if you want to outright remove the curse. Simply healing a person has a much lower DC.

The DC is listed, and the counteract rules at least tell us what the caster adds to their roll. I'll give you that.

I'm just not sure if a "success" against that DC triggers this phrase: "Counteract the target if its counteract level is no more than 1 level higher than your effect’s counteract level."

I.e. does the healing happen once you roll a 29+, or do we have to check levels first?

The former, specific overrides general.

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