Overwatch Vortex and Multiple Attacks


Rules Questions


The combat feat Overwatch Vortex states: "as a full-round action you can ready up to four ranged attacks, each with its own triggering event. You take a –2 penalty on attack rolls made with these readied actions."

I just wanted to double check that all of these attacks are made at Full BAB?

I assume it is since readied actions don't grant iterative attacks and most bonus attacks you can get are typically taken at full BAB (outside of outliers such as fortuitous weapon enchantment).

Just wanting to make sure I'm not missing anything on this.


yep full bab for each (-2 for feat).
overwatch is for moving and attacking. you get less attacks from full bab full round attack with manyshot+rapid shot, but at full bab for all attacks. notice that 'each with it's own trigger' can also be triggering each other. as nothing in the ready action prevent the trigger be something you do. so can be :
'ready to shoot as soon as i stop moving'
then r'eady to shoot as soon as i finish shooting the first arrow'.
then 2nd and 3rd.


RAWmonger wrote:
I just wanted to double check that all of these attacks are made at Full BAB?

All attacks are always at full BAB except for explicitly stated penalties. The iterative penalty is only, ever, applied to, well, iterative attacks, which are the additional attacks you get from using a manufactured weapon or unarmed strike at higher BAB values. You have to take a 'full attack action' to make iterative attacks, likewise for bonus attacks from things like Haste or Rapid Shot, and as a specific full-round action, Overwatch Vortex is not a full attack action.

For clarity, the bonus attack from Fortuitous is not an iterative attack, nor are the bonus attacks from the Improved/Great Two-Weapon Fighting feats.


zza ni wrote:

yep full bab for each (-2 for feat).

overwatch is for moving and attacking. you get less attacks from full bab full round attack with manyshot+rapid shot, but at full bab for all attacks. notice that 'each with it's own trigger' can also be triggering each other. as nothing in the ready action prevent the trigger be something you do. so can be :
'ready to shoot as soon as i stop moving'
then r'eady to shoot as soon as i finish shooting the first arrow'.
then 2nd and 3rd.

I was considering something like:

Ready A: An enemy prepares to take an aggressive action (casting, attacking, etc...)

Ready B: If I shot at an enemy and he's not yet dead

Ready C: If I shot at an enemy and he's not yet dead

Ready D: Closest enemy is still alive

I'm also doing some shenanigans to get ranged attacks of opportunity, so I can get something like a max of 11 full BAB attacks a round if enough enemies provoke, but I don't care to disclose my entire build here haha

EDIT: But I see that your plan keeps me at the same initiative count. It's a little cheeky but I might do a little variation of it. Mainly this is supposed to be a caster-breaker build. They attempt to cast, they provoke my attack of opportunity, as well as 4 readied actions... enjoy making 5 concentration checks for your spell at DC 30-40+


so here's the thing. you can ready an attack with normal\improved\greater vital strike... 4 of these and there should be no caster to disrupt, BUT if there is, then look into painful blow to really push it off the realm of possibility
- this also help with casters using swift\immediate casting to make you disrupt an unimportant spell, such as casting feather fall before their real doom's-day spell


zza ni wrote:

so here's the thing. you can ready an attack with normal\improved\greater vital strike... 4 of these and there should be no caster to disrupt, BUT if there is, then look into painful blow to really push it off the realm of possibility

- this also help with casters using swift\immediate casting to make you disrupt an unimportant spell, such as casting feather fall before their real doom's-day spell

Now that’s an idea. Never considered prepping a bunch of attacks with vital haha


zza ni wrote:
so here's the thing. you can ready an attack with normal\improved\greater vital strike...

No you can't. You can ready an attack action, and then use Vital Strike on that attack action, but you can not use vital striek on any kind of readied attack. Overwatch Style and Overwatch Vortex don't use the attack action, and thus are not compatible with Vital Strike.


Derklord wrote:
zza ni wrote:
so here's the thing. you can ready an attack with normal\improved\greater vital strike...
No you can't. You can ready an attack action, and then use Vital Strike on that attack action, but you can not use vital striek on any kind of readied attack. Overwatch Style and Overwatch Vortex don't use the attack action, and thus are not compatible with Vital Strike.

Was actually getting ready to ask exactly how that would work. What type of attack is a ready attack is it an Attack action attack or is it something different.


An unwritten rule is that if the ability does not say "attack action", it's not the attack action.

Normally, you can ready any kind of standard, move, or swift action, so as a standard action, you could ready an attack action. Overwatch Style/Vortex, however, do not use the normal ready action rules, because you ready individual attacks, not actions (plus, the ready action is a specific standard action itself). Indeed, it's not even definite that your initiative count changes at all (because it changes when you make the readied action, which is not actually something you ever do strict RAW). There is a bit of guesswork involved, because we have to use some of the ready action-rules, but can't say with absolute certain how far to go. I had actually planned to make a post about that, but wasn't certain enough about what exactly applies.


Derklord wrote:


Normally, you can ready any kind of standard, move, or swift action, so as a standard action, you could ready an attack action. Overwatch Style/Vortex, however, do not use the normal ready action rules, because you ready individual attacks, not actions

I had looked a little into this once the idea was mentioned and arrived at the same conclusion. Overwatch Vortex clearly creates special, unique action economy that isn’t as simple as “these are 4 standard action attack actions.”

Not to mention it goes entirely against the spirit of vital strike paths.


Derklord wrote:
zza ni wrote:
so here's the thing. you can ready an attack with normal\improved\greater vital strike...
No you can't. You can ready an attack action, and then use Vital Strike on that attack action, but you can not use vital striek on any kind of readied attack. Overwatch Style and Overwatch Vortex don't use the attack action, and thus are not compatible with Vital Strike.

I disagree. The rules are not written in legalese, so this kind of specificity seems more strict than intended.

Overwatch style should give you more options, not less. The way I read it is that you're still readying an action, but you have to ready an action that involves a ranged attack (and it has to be with the appropriate weapon). This language is there to stop you from readying 4 actions to move/cast/draw-weapons/drink-potions/etc, not to stop you from using standard action attacks.

I understand that there's reason behind the alternate view (and having checked previous questions it seems I'm in the minority here), but I don't think it's as cut and dry as people say.

TLDR: Ask your GM.

(Does anyone have an example of a ruling for this in PFS? I didn't see one but I didn't look that hard.)


MrCharisma wrote:
I disagree. The rules are not written in legalese, so this kind of specificity seems more strict than intended.

Objectively wrong. "Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.

Overwatch Style does exactly the same, it includes the ability to ready attacks, not attack actions. Like it or not, this is how the rules work, and how Paizo has confirmed them to work.

MrCharisma wrote:
Overwatch style should give you more options, not less.

It gives you the option to ready more than one shot. How is that "less options"?

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