With the errata change, the first benefit for Chirurgeon (P73) is now "You start with the formula for two of the following in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas: lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixer of life."
A Basic Crafter's Book can be bought for 1 sp and says "This book contains the formulas for Crafting the common items in this chapter" (p287). Page 245 further clarifies this: "You can gain access to the formulas for all common items in Chapter 6: Equipment by purchasing a basic crafter's book". Based on this, it seems clear that this includes all 3 of the choices above. Lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixer of life are all formulas in chapter 6.
So assuming your GM makes a Basic Crafter's Book available for your characters during character generation, the first benefit from being a Chirurgeon is not terribly useful. Maybe that's the point, that Chirurgeons can still gain them even if the GM does not make Basic Crafter's Books available. Or am I missing something here?
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Box, page 293: the basic crafter's book only contains the level 0 formulas. The items you list are all level 1+ (p.454f.). The chirurgeon refers to the (blank) formula book (p.290).
Box, page 293: the basic crafter's book only contains the level 0 formulas. The items you list are all level 1+ (p.454f.). The chirurgeon refers to the (blank) formula book (p.290).
Dunno where you are coming up with that.
Basic Crafter’s Book: This book contains the formulas (page 293) for Crafting the common items in this chapter.
Nothing about Level in there.
The Items he lists are on pg. 292, which is definitely the Equipment Chapter.
Those Formulas can be found in a Basic Crafter's Book.
Just because there is reminder text in the table about how to get Level 0 Items doesn't change the actual Rules Text of the Basic Crafter's Book.
So your interpretation would have every Alchemist being able to buy a Basic Crafter's Book and bypass the need to learn or buy the Formulas any of the Alchemical items listed on page 292?
Yes, that's correct. That's why they're there. I'm not interpreting anything. That's what the Item says. I don't see how this could be a grey area.
If people are playing it another way, no wonder they think the Alchemist is so bad.
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Upon closer inspection, it would seem that this very well might work just fine but the Advanced and Quick Alchemy features specifically call out the Formula Book (which is distinct from the Basic Crafter's Book) so while the Alchemist COULD craft the items from chapter 11, they'd need to do so in the good old-fashioned slow way by creating permanent items that do not interact with their infused reagents.
Interesting...
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While it's not entirely clear, I don't think the intent was that the Alchemical Gear or Magical Gear counts as being "in this chapter." There's a brief description for the low-level consumables so that players know they exist to buy, but the full descriptions are in the Treasure chapter.
The bombs are all on the list, too, so this reading also renders the bomber's free formulas meaningless.
Given that you need particular feats to make alchemical (or magical) items at all, it really wouldn't make any sense for them to be in a "Basic Crafter's Book."
The table under "Formulas" on page 293 says the Basic Crafter's Book only holds 0-level items, but the actual description doesn't say that. Nor does the reference in the crafting rules.
The intent is clear in this case. The text of the basic crafter's book even refers to page 293 (and thus the level 0 formulas). Still the basic crafter's book has the problem of being much too cheap for containing all the formulas of level 0 adventuring gear, but that is another problem.
While it's not entirely clear, I don't think the intent was that the Alchemical Gear or Magical Gear counts as being "in this chapter." There's a brief description for the low-level consumables so that players know they exist to buy, but the full descriptions are in the Treasure chapter.
The bombs are all on the list, too, so this reading also renders the bomber's free formulas meaningless.
Given that you need particular feats to make alchemical (or magical) items at all, it really wouldn't make any sense for them to be in a "Basic Crafter's Book."
Neither the Dwarven Daisy, nor the Peshspine Grenade are listed on that page. The Bomber's ability doesn't limit it to Common Items, and the list will only grow as more content is released.
The table under "Formulas" on page 293 says the Basic Crafter's Book only holds 0-level items, but the actual description doesn't say that. Nor does the reference in the crafting rules.
The table on 293 does not say that either. It says:
Formulas for all 0-level common items from this chapter can be purchased collectively in a basic crafter’s book.
Which is a true statement, and is a subset of:
Basic Crafter’s Book: This book contains the formulas (page 293) for Crafting the common items in this chapter.
Pg. 245 also states:
Getting Formulas
You can gain access to the formulas for all common
items in Chapter 6: Equipment by purchasing a basic
crafter’s book (page 287). See the rules on page 293 for
information on how to acquire other formulas.
If a first-aid kit contains band-aids, gauze, tweezers, and pain killers, saying "you can get band-aids by buying a first-aid kit" does not magically remove the other contents of the kit.
The intent is clear in this case. The text of the basic crafter's book even refers to page 293 (and thus the level 0 formulas). Still the basic crafter's book has the problem of being much too cheap for containing all the formulas of level 0 adventuring gear, but that is another problem.
It refers to page 293 to explain what a Formula is. That's why the (pg. 293) reference is directly after the word Formulas.
It's absurd to believe that a footnote in a table overrides the full rules text of an Item. Especially when even as written, it doesn't.
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So your interpretation would have every Alchemist being able to buy a Basic Crafter's Book and bypass the need to learn or buy the Formulas any of the Alchemical items listed on page 292?
Yes, that's correct. That's why they're there. I'm not interpreting anything. That's what the Item says. I don't see how this could be a grey area.
If people are playing it another way, no wonder they think the Alchemist is so bad.
The basic alchemical items are in the equipment chapter because the Playtest survey revealed that people found it confusing that 1st-level Alchemists had to delve into the Treasure chapter for their basic gear.
The fact that 2 of the three research fields explicitly give you formulae that under your interpretation would be included in a basic crafter's book (and the Alchemist kit definitely has enough gold leftover to buy one), indicates that they weren't intended to be included in the BCB.
What probably happened is that the description of the BCB was brought over from the playtest where the alchemical items weren't in the equipment chapter and then they brought over the items after that survey without remembering about the BCB's description.
So your interpretation would have every Alchemist being able to buy a Basic Crafter's Book and bypass the need to learn or buy the Formulas any of the Alchemical items listed on page 292?
Yes, that's correct. That's why they're there. I'm not interpreting anything. That's what the Item says. I don't see how this could be a grey area.
If people are playing it another way, no wonder they think the Alchemist is so bad.
The basic alchemical items are in the equipment chapter because the Playtest survey revealed that people found it confusing that 1st-level Alchemists had to delve into the Treasure chapter for their basic gear.
The fact that 2 of the three research fields explicitly give you formulae that under your interpretation would be included in a basic crafter's book (and the Alchemist kit definitely has enough gold leftover to buy one), indicates that they weren't intended to be included in the BCB.
What probably happened is that the description of the BCB was brought over from the playtest where the alchemical items weren't in the equipment chapter and then they brought over the items after that survey without remembering about the BCB's description.
Whether you are correct about the intent or not, the BCB has not received errata, and as such, they are included. There is literally nothing in the entire book that excludes them.
Again, the only Alchemist that actually has a problem is the Chigurgeon, and he has way more problems than this. The Bomber already has 2 Bombs that are not in this Chapter, with more to come.
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Let's see.
Evidence that it's not intended:
- Page 293 saying it's only level 0 items
- Chirurgeon only giving you formulae for things in the equipment chapter
- Bomber only giving you formulae for things in the equipment chapter (The only other bombs are uncommon so need GM permission)
Evidence that it is:
- One line of description copied over from the Playtest where the items were not in the equipment chapter
At this point, you're at best in Ambiguous Rules territory: if one version of an ambiguous rule seems too good to be true, it probably is
Let's see.
Evidence that it's not intended:
- Page 293 saying it's only level 0 items
It does not say that. You are adding text that does not exist. The word only does not appear.
Bomber only giving you formulae for things in the equipment chapter (The only other bombs are uncommon so need GM permission)
You do not need GM permission for Uncommon things granted directly by a Feature. You don't need GM permission for this any more than you do for Focus Spells or Unconventional Weaponry, and again, the list will continue to grow with new content.
Evidence that it is:
[list]One line of description copied over from the Playtest where the items were not in the equipment chapter
It's more than one line. It's listed twice in two different Chapters. It is not contradicted by any other text in the book.
I did not participate in the playtest, so I have no way of verifying whether or not the text was copied over, or what was or was not in a given Chapter. Either way, that's irrelevant. We're not talking about the playtest.
If you choose to ignore what's printed, that's your choice.
At this point, you're at best in Ambiguous Rules territory: if one version of an ambiguous rule seems too good to be true, it probably is
This doesn't seem remotely too good to be true. It seems entirely intended that the Basic Crafter's Book would include the formulas for all of the Common Items from the basic Equipment Chapter.
They are Common enough for a 1st level character to start with them. They are available literally everywhere.
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Let's see.
Evidence that it's not intended:
- Page 293 saying it's only level 0 items
It does not say that. You are adding text that does not exist. The word only does not appear.
The exception proves the rule (In the original sense of the phrase). By only mentioning that 0th-level items are included in the book, that implies that formulae of other levels are not in the book.
Bomber only giving you formulae for things in the equipment chapter (The only other bombs are uncommon so need GM permission) You do not need GM permission for Uncommon things granted directly by a Feature. You don't need GM permission for this any more than you do for Focus Spells or Unconventional Weaponry, and again, the list will continue to grow with new content.
But they're not granted directly by a feature. If that were the case, the Uncommon trait on spells would do literally nothing, since spellcasters are "granted" new spells by a feature.
Unconventional Weaponry explicitly grants access to an uncommon weapon. Feats with focus spells directly tell you you gain the spell in question. "Go pick from that list" is not directly giving you an uncommon feature.
Evidence that it is:
[list]One line of description copied over from the Playtest where the items were not in the equipment chapter It's more than one line. It's listed twice in two different Chapters. It is not contradicted by any other text in the book.
I did not participate in the playtest, so I have no way of verifying whether or not the text was copied over, or what was or was not in a given Chapter. Either way, that's irrelevant. We're not talking about the playtest.
If you choose to ignore what's printed, that's your choice.
Alright, two lines copied over from the playtest. It's relevant because it's evidence that the description is not a deliberate choice in the final rule, just a missed spot in editing.
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I'll add one more piece of evidence to the fact that it is not intended: the Alchemist Kit includes a Basic Crafter's Kit. If it was intended to include all the Equipment chapter's formulae, the alchemist would not make such a big fuss of counting how many formulae they have in their Formula Book feature (since the equipment chapter contains all level 1 alchemical items in the CRB)
Let's see.
Evidence that it's not intended:
[list]Page 293 saying it's only level 0 items
It does not say that. You are adding text that does not exist. The word only does not appear.
The exception proves the rule (In the original sense of the phrase). By only mentioning that 0th-level items are included in the book, that implies that formulae of other levels are not in the book.
That is such nonsense that I'm not sure you even believe yourself. It does no such thing. With the complete absence of any other text about the BCB, it would mean that, but given that other, more thorough and explicit text exists, that conclusion is completely illogical.
Bomber only giving you formulae for things in the equipment chapter (The only other bombs are uncommon so need GM permission)
You do not need GM permission for Uncommon things granted directly by a Feature. You don't need GM permission for this any more than you do for Focus Spells or Unconventional Weaponry, and again, the list will continue to grow with new content.
But they're not granted directly by a feature. If that were the case, the Uncommon trait on spells would do literally nothing, since spellcasters are "granted" new spells by a feature.
Unconventional Weaponry explicitly grants access to an uncommon weapon. Feats with focus spells directly tell you you gain the spell in question. "Go pick from that list" is not directly giving you an uncommon feature.
This is incorrect as well. The Formula Book Feature has the restriction of Common Items. The Research Field Feature has no such Restriction.
All of the Spellcaster Features specify that you choose Spells from the Common Spells. Spellcaster cannot choose Uncommon or Rare Spells with their Spellbooks/Repertoires, because those Features specifically say so.
I'll add one more piece of evidence to the fact that it is not intended: the Alchemist Kit includes a Basic Crafter's Kit. If it was intended to include all the Equipment chapter's formulae, the alchemist would not make such a big fuss of counting how many formulae they have in their Formula Book feature (since the equipment chapter contains all level 1 alchemical items in the CRB)
This is patently false.
There are 12 Level 1 Common Alchemical Items in the Equipment Chapter. There are 24 Level 1 Common Alchemical Items in the CRB.
Given how condescending you've been, you could at least read the book.
I don't usually double post, but my previous post was already really long and contained multiple responses to a different person.
You do not need GM permission for Uncommon things granted directly by a Feature.Unless a feature actually includes the words "access" and "uncommon" in the right configuration of other words and context, then that feature has not "granted directly" any such things.
This is why the bomber alchemist research field doesn't let you put uncommon bomb formulae into your book unless your GM says "go ahead and do that."
I disagree. If a Feature lets you pick from a list, it is giving you Access. Your prior Access is irrelevant unless the Feature specifically says so. There are many examples of this in the book.
Characters at creation can choose from "languages they have access to".
Spellcasters can choose from "common spells"
If there is no qualifier, you get to choose from the entire list.
Wish lets you replicate "any arcane spell of 9th level or lower"
A Shifting Rune can turn your weapon into any melee weapon that uses the same number of hands.
Now, this does not give the Alchemist Access to buy those Bombs, or those Formulas, but he can certainly choose them when Leveling.
treating "it didn't say it had to be common" as a thing is directly incompatible with the general definition of Rarity.
And using features that do specify you have to choose common options as evidence that a feature is required to say that in order to limit you to common options is letting a friendly reminder not being present be treated identically to a specific exception. That is an illogical thing to do because there is no way to differentiate between "is supposed to work as normal but doesn't have a reminder" and "is supposed to be different than normal" with that set of expectations.
Also, if your reasoning were accurate here, the text "Each time you gain a level, you add two more arcane spells to your spellbook, of any level of spell you can cast." and "You add to this spell repertoire as you increase in level. Each tim you get a spell slot, you add a spell of the same level to your spell repertoire." would make it entirely irrelevant that any spell of greater than 1st level ever be marked as uncommon or rare.
No it wouldn't. Because it has already been established that you are restricted to Common Spells from a Specific List.
I don't see anything indicating that it is reminder text. It is qualifier text telling you what you can choose from.
How do you reconcile treating a sentence in another paragraph about specifically starting spells as applying to a sentence about spells gained later on, but the general rule of rarity as not being relevant anywhere it isn't explicitly mentioned?
It complies with the general rarity rules just fine.
Rarity
Some elements of the game have a rarity to denote how
often they’re encountered in the game world. Rarity
primarily applies to equipment and magic items, but
spells, feats, and other rules elements also have a rarity.
If no rarity appears in the traits of an item, spell, or other
game element, it is of common rarity. Uncommon items are
available only to those who have special training, grew up
in a certain culture, or come from a particular part of the
world. Rare items are almost impossible to find and are
usually given out only by the GM, while unique ones are
literally one-of-a-kind in the game. The GM might alter the
way rarity works or change the rarity of individual items
to suit the story they want to tell.
USING RARITY AND ACCESS
The rarity system has two purposes: to convey how
common or rare certain spells, creatures, or items are in
the game world, and to give you an easy tool to control
the complexity of your game. Uncommon and rare options
aren’t more powerful than other options of their level, but
they introduce complications for certain types of stories,
or are less common in the world. For instance, it might
be more challenging to run a mystery adventure when a
player can cast an uncommon spell such as detect evil.
At the start of the campaign, communicate your
preferred expectations on rarity to the players. Unless
you decide otherwise, the players can choose from any
common options they qualify for, plus any uncommon
options granted by their character choices—primarily
their ancestry and class. By default, a character who
tries hard enough might eventually find an uncommon
option, whereas a rare option is always a special reward.
Beyond that baseline, you can grant access as freely as
you want; some GMs open up all uncommon and rare
options universally. If you’re not sure, just look over any
uncommon or rare elements before you include them as
rewards or otherwise allow a player to acquire them.
The Alchemist Class is "special training", and the Research Field is a Character choice that grants them access to those elements.
A GM can certainly say "I'm not allowing X in my game", but the default assumption is that if you have a Feature that grants something, you can have it.
The default rarity rule says that if a rarity is not specified, then it's common rarity.
So no, "pick a formula" with no specified rarity doesn't gel with that unless you treat it as "pick a [common] formula."
You're misreading the rule. If an Item, Spell, Feat, etc... doesn't list a Rarity Trait, that means it is Common, as there is no Common Trait. That has nothing to do with this ability granting Access to all Bombs.
Aratorin,
You're misreading the ability as the word "all" does not appear within it.
neither does "any" or any other way in which we could see explicit permission for an alchemist to choose uncommon or rare formulas because of their research feature.
The entire rest of the system sets a precedent of only having permission when that permission is explicit, not implied, and never "it could be read as implied permission, or it could be read as not being permission" thanks to the 'too good to be true' rule.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Just feel like mentioning that reading this thread you came across as excessively abrasive and combative. Not sure if this was intentional or you just got heated in the moment.
There are other ways to disagree. As is, it doesn't help foster what would otherwise be an interesting discussion imo.