So it recently came to my attention that neither the Heal nor Harm spell have the Attack Trait, even when used in the 1 action version which has a Range of Touch. This tells me that you do not have to make a Melee Spell Attack roll to use either spell on an opponent. Is this also true for the 2 action Ranged version?
The example that brought this to my attention was Channel Smite. Does Channel Smite constitute 1 total attack for Multiple Attack Penalty, since the Strike within Channel Smite has the Attack Trait, or should it constitute two attacks for that purpose?
TL;DR, If a cleric tries to give you the bad touch with 1 action Harm, does he have to roll to hit to touch you. If so, should this be an Attack action and contribute to MAP?
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Like most spells that use saves, heal/harm does not have the attack trait and has nothing to do with MAP. This is fairly normal, in that touch spells only require an attack roll if specifically stated in the spell description.
Touch Range
A spell with a range of touch requires you to physically touch the target. You use your unarmed reach to determine whether you can touch the creature. You can usually touch the target automatically, though the spell might specify that the target can attempt a saving throw or that you must attempt a spell attack roll. If an ability increases the range of a touch spell, start at 0 feet and increase from there.
No version of the heal/harm spells involve an attack roll.
Channel smite is a single attack action, in the subordinate action strike.
Like most spells that use saves, heal/harm does not have the attack trait and has nothing to do with MAP. This is fairly normal, in that touch spells only require an attack roll if specifically stated in the spell description.
Touch Range
A spell with a range of touch requires you to physically touch the target. You use your unarmed reach to determine whether you can touch the creature. You can usually touch the target automatically, though the spell might specify that the target can attempt a saving throw or that you must attempt a spell attack roll. If an ability increases the range of a touch spell, start at 0 feet and increase from there.No version of the heal/harm spells involve an attack roll.
Channel smite is a single attack action, in the subordinate action strike.
I understand that. However does it make sense that the 1 action version would not require an attack roll? Compare to Shocking Grasp. If a Wizard has such a tough time touching an opponent, surely a Cleric would face the same.
I understand that that would bring back the PF1 era roll to hit, then the enemy still gets a save issue that they obviously want to avoid. But my question really boils down to this: Should this even be a saved base spell, at least for the 1 and 2 action versions?
The 3 Action area heal/harm makes tons of sense as a Save based effect. However the Touch and even Ranged version make more sense as a Spell Attack roll. At least to me.
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There are tons of such effects, save based with a range of touch. Heal/Harm is far from being the only one. I think of Chill Touch for example.
Changing Heal/Harm to a Melee Spell Attack roll has a lot of impact on the game, especially because it suddenly qualifies for Rogue Sneak Attack if you also take Magical Trickster. A one action Sneak Attack is extremely powerful. If it's also the best cure spell of the game, it becomes way overpowered.
Shocking Grasp actually seems to be in the minority for PF2. A lot of what we would usually consider "touch" spells are saves and not attack rolls. Vampiric Touch, Lay on Hands (when used as an attack against undead and the like), and a lot of these sorts of spells require saves and not an attack roll.
And to be honest, to me this DOES make more sense and sort of replaces the idea of Touch AC, since magic doesn't care about your armor but might care about you being able to resist it. I would rather they change Shocking Grasp to a Dex Save personally.
As for Heal itself, I don't actually assume that you have to touch the person in question to heal them. I interpret Heal as the Cleric sticking their hand out an aura of positive energy engulfs the person you are using it on. There isn't a "bolt" of healing on the two action version.
The artwork for Lay on Hands seems to support this. If you open up the CRB and go to the Focus spells and find Lay on Hands (I think it is page 387 or something), the artwork shows the Champion holding their hand out next to their downed ally, but not actually touching them. Instead a sort of bubble of healing magic springs out of their hand and surrounds the target.
Well, shocking grasp has a possible explanation in its name - it might rely on actually grabbing (eg grasping) the person for a few seconds to maintain contact for long enough to electrocute them, while harm all you might need to do is lightly brush against them with a fingertip, which is much harder to prevent.
(Try and stop someone right next to you from touching you without yourself making contact, its actually pretty difficult, as opposed to trying to stop them from holding onto you which is much easier).
Of course, the out of universe explanation is simply that you don't need to roll for every little thing that you try and do, and that multiple dice rolls for one attack are generally not worth the break in the games flow, especially if you end up adjusting the numbers to make it have the same odds as a single roll counterpart.