How long does it take to Take 20 on reading a complicated book requiring a Wisdom DC 25 ability check to understand? Days? Weeks? Months?
That sounds more like a Linguistics check to me.
Still, I doubt there are clearly defined rules regarding how long it takes to read a book. There are a lot of factors. But the important thing, I think, is that all of those factors are uninteresting from the narrative's perspective.
I have two questions, then:
1. Does it really matter how long it takes? If there's no pressure, then it's just done when it's done.
2. If the answer to #1 is yes, what are the time restrictions on this task, and what is causing them?
It's a religious text: The Mysteries of Salaur, holy text of Mahathallah, so that's why it's wisdom. DC was set in Dance of the Damned article on her religion, page 73.
As far as whether there's a clock on it, there is and there isn't. It's the start of an urban war, but the book is a step on the path towards resolving a narrative goal. If the answer is "days" then they could conceivably finish it before the end of the shooting war. If the answer is longer than that, I'd like to give them that answer so that they don't waste their cohort's time on this task until after the war ends, which shouldn't be longer than 2 weeks.
I don't think you can study any real book in less than a day, and that is being real generous. Taking 20 requires 20 times the normal time.
Or, since it sounds like you are the GM, it takes long enough to be narratively interesting, and maybe a tad stressful.
I think there are rules somewhere that state that it takes 1 minute to read 1 page of text. How long is this book?
(I'll see if I can find those rules later tonight, I could be wrong on this so don't quote me on it yet.)
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"Book" can define an eight pages pamphlet or a tome with several thousand of pages. The DC of understanding it is not necessarily relevant to the length, an eight pages article on astrophysics can be way more difficult to understand than a thousand pages geography treatise.
So, unless the description of the book says something, it is a GM call.
A religious text generally isn't difficult to read, the problem is extracting the relevant information, so 1 page/minute reading speed cited by MrCharisma is a reasonable value. Add some time to take notes and a 1,000 pages book can be read in 20 hours if the character doing that is used to read and recall.
Guessing the probable thickness of the book I would say that 20 hours for the first check and 5 hours for each additional check by the same person seem reasonable.
So I don't remember where I found 1 page per minute, but i found a few books HERE.
They're mostly "small" books, and they take 10 minutes - 1 hour to read (or less to just reference). This would be 200 minutes - 20 hours if taking 20.
My advice: Since it sounds like you're the GM, you can give them whatever time you like. If you want them to finish it within a week or two that sounds reasonable to me. If you want this to be something they don't get till later then 1 day per read (or even two days per read) wouldn't be unbelievable for a bible.
*MINOR SPOILER FOR THE FANGWOODKEEP*
In the module the fangwood keep, it says that there is a book you can find that takes 1d3 10 minutes to read (scout through). If you are a GM, don't bother with this amount of detail. Just wing it. If players say you are inconsistent about how the book is to read, tell them to shut it.
If you are a player, it fully depends on the GM.
I like your estimate of 115 hours for the whole book, or 14 days or so.
A religious text generally isn't difficult to read...
This one seems to be. The description refers to it as encyclopedic, covering 4 different topics. It's tricky, as one would expect from the Dowager of Illusions with the domain trickery, whose religious practices include using fictions and lies to reveal deeper truths: "Any character who succeeds at a DC 20 Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (nature) check realizes that several of the purported facts are entirely fictional. A successful DC 25 Wisdom check, however, reveals numerous metaphor-coded prayers and rites to Mahathallah hidden among the fictions..."
I agree that it would be a linguistics check. Instead of taking 20 you could use the rules for aiding other. Have the person with the highest linguistic roll be the primary and as many others as the GM will allow to assist roll to give a +2 bonus each.
...the DC type and amount was set by the writers of the adventure path...
Yet another reason adventure paths aren't very good.
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I like your estimate of 115 hours for the whole book, or 14 days or so.
A religious text generally isn't difficult to read...This one seems to be. The description refers to it as encyclopedic, covering 4 different topics. It's tricky, as one would expect from the Dowager of Illusions with the domain trickery, whose religious practices include using fictions and lies to reveal deeper truths: "Any character who succeeds at a DC 20 Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (nature) check realizes that several of the purported facts are entirely fictional. A successful DC 25 Wisdom check, however, reveals numerous metaphor-coded prayers and rites to Mahathallah hidden among the fictions..."
For me "difficult to read" is different from "difficult to comprehend". If you read the Bible as a reading text there are plenty of parts that can be read easily, some are boring, like the genealogies, but you don't need to spend time resolving equations or deciphering diagrams. But if you want to interpret the religious meaning of what you are reading, the difficulty is very different. Rabbis and Christian priests have spent a few millenniums discussing them and there are plenty of different interpretations.
Same situations here, the books contain parables, fictional events that have some hidden meaning (not necessarily hidden truths), metaphors and so on. So it is possible to read it, enjoy it and keep a good pace doing that without gaining any useful information.
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I agree that it would be a linguistics check. Instead of taking 20 you could use the rules for aiding other. Have the person with the highest linguistic roll be the primary and as many others as the GM will allow to assist roll to give a +2 bonus each.
The goal is to get "enlightenment" about the hidden meanings of the text, not a correct translation.
The famous translation "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" is an error, as the original was "t is easier for a hawser to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven", but it maintains the original meaning of the example.
Translating "light" in a piece of text that speaks of the "charge of the light brigade in the valley of death" as "luce" (as in solar light) and not "leggera" (as in light weight) is a valid translation where the translator has completely lost the context and turned a light cavalry brigade in some science fiction unit armed with lightsabers.
How long it takes to study a book depends on (a) the book; and (b) what you mean by "study". The example you gave is a bit light on the details, but even with said details it's likely to come down to GM discretion, as the GM is likely the only one who really knows how complex the book is.
There are Paizo-published rules for using particular books or sets of books to aid in research checks as though they were micro-libraries. Presumably, the books are complicated or esoteric enough that simply reading them cover to cover isn't really sufficient to gain a full understanding, but cross-referencing them while looking for a particular answer can help you find relevant information more quickly. (This is without getting into anything like magical tomes and the like, though that can come up as well.)
But if the situation simply calls for a DC 25 Wisdom check, then it sounds like the designer of the challenge simply didn't think to go into such detail, so the GM is left to decide it.
Don't know if this is what you were recalling but there's this bit of text from the longer descriptive text of Read Magic.
You can read at the rate of one page (250 words) per minute. "
'Eyy, that's the one. Good find.
I think in this case it's really up to the GM - finishing this book is more of a plot point - so have them finish it when you want them to: Either just before or just after the war seems like a good point to me (or before the end of the war if they need this to aid one/both sides).
I agree that it would be a linguistics check. Instead of taking 20 you could use the rules for aiding other. Have the person with the highest linguistic roll be the primary and as many others as the GM will allow to assist roll to give a +2 bonus each.Well we're way past what kind of the check it is... as the OP stated, the DC type and amount was set by the writers of the adventure path...
"It's a religious text: The Mysteries of Salaur, holy text of Mahathallah, so that's why it's wisdom. DC was set in Dance of the Damned article on her religion, page 73."
Any reason you cannot use the aid other on the WIS check?
Any reason you cannot use the aid other on the WIS check?
Can't see why not.
Though if it's a matter of understanding complex theological discussion, then it should be Knowledge (religion).|
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Aid another doesn't make a task faster.
To have 5 people read the same book at the same time you need to have them read the same page at the same time or rip the book apart in five pieces.
If you rip the book apart every person will be reading a different section. To return to the Bible example, me reading the Genesis don't help you to interpret the Exodus.
If we all read the same page we advance at the speed of the slowest reader.
If each person read the book for 8 an hours shift and then he passes the book to another reader you can have 3 persons read the same book in a day. That will allow them to aid one another if they take the time to discuss their findings. But it will not make the work faster.
Splitting the book apart may work depending on what exactly they are looking for. If for example you are looking for the name of the person who condemned Christ, that could be sped up by having 5 people search. Sure the people reading the old testament are not going to find anything, but at least those portions where covered.
The idea behind using the aid other was not so much to speed it up, but rather to increase the chance of success. Assuming 4 people can aid other that is a potential +8 on the roll. I am assuming the person making the roll has a decent WIS bonus or they would not be the ones chosen. If the cohort making the roll can get his roll up to +7 and the other 4 make their DC 10 roll the cohort can take 10 and succeed. That is going to be a lot quicker than taking 20.
Taking 20 is supposed to be a quick way to avoid sitting around and making a lot of rolls while nothing else is going on and there is no consequence of failure. It is supposed to simulate that eventually you are going to roll a twenty. I would suggest since this seems to be going on in the background the GM simply make the rolls beforehand and have the cohort come to the PC’s when he is finished. The taking 20 rule does not really seem to fit this situation. This is of course if the aid other option does not work.
As much as that's a cool spell, I think the idea behind it is that you specifically can't take 20 (subject to GM discretion of course).
How long does it take to Take 20 on reading a complicated book requiring a Wisdom DC 25 ability check to understand? Days? Weeks? Months?
The magical books that give stat bonuses and the like take a week to read and understand.
What does this book grant?
Wing it from its relative power.
Question: Are you allowed to retry? If no, then Take-20 doesn't apply.
The spells Tears to Wine is a good spell to help with this.
/cevah
How long does it take to Take 20 on reading a complicated book requiring a Wisdom DC 25 ability check to understand? Days? Weeks? Months?The magical books that give stat bonuses and the like take a week to read and understand.
What does this book grant?
Wing it from its relative power.
Question: Are you allowed to retry? If no, then Take-20 doesn't apply.
The spells Tears to Wine is a good spell to help with this.
/cevah
Haha, without looking that spell up it looks like you're just getting frustrated by the book and drowning your sorrows in your own tears.
#ultimateloneliness