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The rules on Critical Specialization says, if you have access to it you gain the Crit. Spec. effect on >attacks< with weapons. Attacks, not just strikes.
Maneuvers (Shove, Trip, Disarm,...) are attacks.
Do I get the Crit. Spec. effect when I crit. succeed on a maneuver with a weapon/unarmed attack for with I have Crit. Spec.?
So, if I crit. Disarm with a ranseur, can I additionally move the target 5ft? If I crit. Shove with a warhammer, is the target also knocked prone?
Edit: And if I have Crit. Spec. for the brawling group, can the target be slowed if I crit. succeed a maneuver with a free hand (since fist is brawling)?
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Wow, RAW that's correct. That's a great find.
For unarmed grabs you don't get the brawling critical specialization though, because your free hands aren't "fist" or whatever unarmed strike you used. Unless you're using something like wolf stance with the trip weapon property.
I could almost think it's even correct by RAI, just because it would have been so easy to say "when you make a Strike" instead of "when you make an attack." But if they'd been thinking of it they would have made sure every crit spec effect would reasonably apply to maneuvers. Axe and Pick don't, IMHO, as they rely on weapon damage dice.
I could almost think it's even correct by RAI, just because it would have been so easy to say "when you make a Strike" instead of "when you make an attack." But if they'd been thinking of it they would have made sure every crit spec effect would reasonably apply to maneuvers. Axe and Pick don't, IMHO, as they rely on weapon damage dice.
Yeah that and Flails can be used to Trip and knock prone on a crit... which also doesn't synergize well. :)
So I'm not sure it is RAI.
A correction some of the statements on RAW in this thread are misleading and just wrong. Which honestly is fair as the book needs improvement here.
It is true that unarmed attacks don't necessarily have weapon traits or specializations.
But unarmed attacks CAN have belong to a weapons group - Core Rule Book page 278, and unarmed attacks CAN have weapon traits - Core Rule Book page 280.
The rule on Groups (Core Rule Book page 280) says
A weapon or unarmed attack’s group classifies it with similar weapons. Groups affect some abilities and what the weapon does on a critical hit if you have access to that weapon or unarmed attack’s critical specialization effects
Making it quite clear that unarmed attacks do have critical specialization effects.
The rules which define what a critical specialization effect is, are what the original poster used to apply then to all attacks with a critical success, even if they are skill checks with the attack trait.
Certain feats, class features, weapon runes, and other effects can grant you additional benefits when you make an attack with certain weapons and get a critical success. This is called a critical specialization effect. The exact effect depends on which weapon group your weapon belongs to
You can't allow the slack use of certain weapons to exclude unarmed attacks, because we already know unarmed attacks do have critical specialization effects. This rule above is the definition of critical specialization effects, not merely one example of its use.
Further you can use the listed statistics for Fist with any normal body part that you attack with, ie a kick or a head butt. Core Rule Book page 278. But not for other unarmed attacks, such as you might get from a polymorph spell or a bite from a heritage feat.
So if you have the specialization effect for fist (because you are a raging level 5 barbarian, or a fighter specialised in the brawling group) then you will be slowing on your critical successes with the Grapple skill check.
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A correction some of the statements on RAW in this thread are misleading and just wrong. Which honestly is fair as the book needs improvement here.
It is true that unarmed attacks don't necessarily have weapon traits or specializations.
But unarmed attacks CAN have belong to a weapons group - Core Rule Book page 278, and unarmed attacks CAN have weapon traits - Core Rule Book page 280.
The rule on Groups (Core Rule Book page 280) saysA weapon or unarmed attack’s group classifies it with similar weapons. Groups affect some abilities and what the weapon does on a critical hit if you have access to that weapon or unarmed attack’s critical specialization effects
Making it quite clear that unarmed attacks do have critical specialization effects.
The rules which define what a critical specialization effect is, are what the original poster used to apply then to all attacks with a critical success, even if they are skill checks with the attack trait.
Certain feats, class features, weapon runes, and other effects can grant you additional benefits when you make an attack with certain weapons and get a critical success. This is called a critical specialization effect. The exact effect depends on which weapon group your weapon belongs to
You can't allow the slack use of certain weapons to exclude unarmed attacks, because we already know unarmed attacks do have critical specialization effects. This rule above is the definition of critical specialization effects, not merely one example of its use.
Further you can use the listed statistics for Fist with any normal body part that you attack with, ie a kick or a head butt. Core Rule Book page 278. But not for other unarmed attacks, such as you might get from a polymorph spell or a bite from a heritage feat.
So if you have the specialization effect for fist (because you are a raging level 5 barbarian, or a fighter specialised...
Not unless your Unarmed Attack has the Grapple Trait. Otherwise, you aren't using that Unarmed Attack, you're just making a Skill Check with no Weapon at all.
If you're an Ape Barbarian using your Fist Attack to Grapple, then yes.
If you're a Fighter just using Grapple, then no.
Although, even for the Ape Barbarian, it's debatable, as that Attack doesn't explicitly belong to a Weapon Group the way a Monk's Dragon Tail Attack does.
Not unless your Unarmed Attack has the Grapple Trait. Otherwise, you aren't using that Unarmed Attack, you're just making a Skill Check with no Weapon at all.
If you're an Ape Barbarian using your Fist Attack to Grapple, then yes.
If you're a Fighter just using Grapple, then no.
Although, even for the Ape Barbarian, it's debatable, as that Attack doesn't explicitly belong to a Weapon Group the way a Monk's Dragon Tail Attack does.
I'm not making a strike with a weapon with the Grapple Trait
I'm making a Grapple skill check with the attack trait and a free hand. Which I consider to be a body part that can be treated as a Fist. As per Core Rule Book page 278.
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Not unless your Unarmed Attack has the Grapple Trait. Otherwise, you aren't using that Unarmed Attack, you're just making a Skill Check with no Weapon at all.
If you're an Ape Barbarian using your Fist Attack to Grapple, then yes.
If you're a Fighter just using Grapple, then no.
Although, even for the Ape Barbarian, it's debatable, as that Attack doesn't explicitly belong to a Weapon Group the way a Monk's Dragon Tail Attack does.
I'm not making a strike with a weapon with the Grapple Trait
I'm making a Grapple skill check with the attack trait and a free hand. Which I consider to be a body part that can be treated as a Fist. As per Core Rule Book page 278.
A Fist does not have the Grapple Trait so it cannot be used to Grapple. If it could, the Grapple Trait of specific Unarmed Attacks would be pointless.
An Attack must have the Grapple Trait to be able to use it to make a Grapple Check.
A generic Grapple Check does not have a Weapon Group.
A Fist does not have the Grapple Trait so it cannot be used to Grapple. If it could, the Grapple Trait of specific Unarmed Attacks would be pointless.An Attack must have the Grapple Trait to be able to use it to make a Grapple Check.
A generic Grapple Check does not have a Weapon Group.
Its not pointless the basic Fist in Table 6-6 applies to normal body parts, all normal body parts including just a free hand. Not a body part enhanced by being a Barbarian animal trait or a Dragons Tail.
The critical specialisation effect applies because it is an "attack with certain weapons" which clearly includes some unarmed attacks. Which an atletics check with a free hand is.
I'm not saying a generic grapple check has a weapon group. I suppose in effect I am saying a skill check attack with a normal free hand can be treated as an skill check attack with a Fist by CRB p278 on Unarmed attacks.
The problem here is that "attack" is several different things.
I'd have to say Aratorin is right here. You're trying to chain together more equivalencies than the rules actually support.
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Its not pointless the basic Fist in Table 6-6 applies to normal body parts, all normal body parts including just a free hand. Not a body part enhanced by being a Barbarian animal trait or a Dragons Tail.
Well, a fist is a free hand, so you don't even need that. It definitely applies to a free hand--and doesn't have the Grapple trait.