Is Deafened meant to impair spell casting?


Rules Discussion


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The deafened condition requires a DC5 flat check to perform an action with the auditory trait.

At first this sounds similar to the 20% spell failure chance from PF1e, but casting spells even with Verbal components doesn't seem to be auditory - Verbal components have just the Concentrate trait. The sidebar says specifically that Cast a Spell becomes auditory if a bard uses a musical instrument (but they could just cast it normally instead).

This seems to make applying deafened pretty useless in combat (so thunderstones, sound burst pretty weak). Am I missing something?


It would affect a few barbarian yelling feats, Bard compositions with verbal components (which add an auditory performance requirement), any character issuing commands to a minion, a monk using Dragon Roar, a demoralize action, a Quivering Palm activation, command activations of a magic item, and probably, others, but I'll stop because I finally found this:

Speaking, CRB 471 wrote:

As long as you can act, you can also speak. You don’t need to spend any type of action to speak, but because a round represents 6 seconds of time, you can usually speak at most a single sentence or so per round. Special uses of speech, such as attempting a Deception skill check to Lie, require spending actions and follow their own rules.

All speech has the auditory trait. If you communicate in some way other than speech, other rules might apply. For instance, using sign language is visual instead of auditory.

That might be good enough for your GM to apply the auditory trait to verbal components. It's pretty weird to say you might fail to successfully shout a one word warning to an ally, but can't fail to say a word of power.

But wait!

Deafness or Being Hard of Hearing, CRB 487 wrote:
deaf character can’t detect anything using hearing, critically fails Perception checks that require hearing, and is immune to auditory effects. They have enough practice to supply verbal components for casting spells and command components for activating magic items, but if they perform an action they’re not accustomed to that involves auditory elements, they must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or the action is lost. It’s best to give them the Sign Language feat for free, and you might give them Read Lips as well (page 266 and 265). You might give one or more other characters in the group Sign Language for free as well.

On the one hand, speaking verbal components is an action a spellcaster is accustomed to. On the other, being deaf generally isn't something they're accustomed to. So I dunno. RAW you can cast spells freely while deaf (both permanently and temporarily), but it does hinder a few other things, and I think that's probably the RAI for temporary deafness but I'm not super confident about it.


The "all speech is auditory" thing seems completely reasonable to me, but RAW seems pretty clear about which traits get added to the Cast a Spell activity:

CRB 303 wrote:

The spell components, described in detail below, add traits and requirements to the Cast a Spell activity. If you can’t provide the components, you fail to Cast the Spell.

• Material (manipulate)
• Somatic (manipulate)
• Verbal (concentrate)
• Focus (manipulate)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ah, actually the bit from CRB 487 makes me think RAI was for verbal casting to be affected by deafness. Because that section is about characters who have disabilities (e.g. were *born* deaf), and have adapted to it better than someone who just gets deafened in combat. It specifically says "Conditions such as blinded and deafened aren’t a good fit" for such characters.

Why would they need to mention that permanently deaf characters would have "enough practice to supply verbal components for casting spells", if everyone can do that while deaf anyway?


Makes sense to me. If you've ever been suddenly deafened you can't quite spepak the way you intend to or think you are. Too l oud, or too uneven.

Magic requires very specific intonation no?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The reason verbal spells don't have the auditory trait can be found in that text above. It mentions deaf characters being immune to auditory effects.

"He's casting Fireball!"
"I plug my ears so I'm immune."
"Wait, what?"
"It's auditory. It has a verbal component."

Also, the Deafened Condition should've been more thorough, it being the go-to place for such things. Maybe editing didn't realize the difference when they saw the DC 5 portion.


Castilliano wrote:

The reason verbal spells don't have the auditory trait can be found in that text above. It mentions deaf characters being immune to auditory effects.

"He's casting Fireball!"
"I plug my ears so I'm immune."
"Wait, what?"
"It's auditory. It has a verbal component."

Also, the Deafened Condition should've been more thorough, it being the go-to place for such things. Maybe editing didn't realize the difference when they saw the DC 5 portion.

There’s a difference between the Cast a Spell component action having the auditory trait and the resulting spell having the trait, so your fireball example isn’t relevant.


Xenocrat wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

The reason verbal spells don't have the auditory trait can be found in that text above. It mentions deaf characters being immune to auditory effects.

"He's casting Fireball!"
"I plug my ears so I'm immune."
"Wait, what?"
"It's auditory. It has a verbal component."

Also, the Deafened Condition should've been more thorough, it being the go-to place for such things. Maybe editing didn't realize the difference when they saw the DC 5 portion.

There’s a difference between the Cast a Spell component action having the auditory trait and the resulting spell having the trait, so your fireball example isn’t relevant.

It's a joke. Apparently a poor one with too many steps.

So Paizo didn't use the auditory tag on verbal components. Yay. No confusion (nor context for the joke).
Except now we know verbal IS affected by deafened, even though deafened doesn't mention how speech actions are susceptible. That's buried elsewhere in the rules. Boo.


Resurrecting this thread!

With Pathfinder 2e Remastered approaching, this question has still not been answered in the rules text in any form of errata, and the rules are only going to get more confusing because spells no longer have the verbal trait.

Instead, the rule will read something like:

revealed Remaster rule wrote:
Casting a spell requires the caster to make gestures and utter incantations, so being unable to speak prevents spellcasting for most casters.

This is pretty much just rephrasing what the verbal component was already doing, except now it's less decisive ("most" casters, probably with permanently deaf/mute casters being the exception).

The Deafened condition still only refers to "an action with the auditory trait", which does not apply.

The Social Splash Damage rules still say "A deaf character (...) have enough practice to supply verbal components for casting spells (...) but if they perform an action they’re not accustomed to that involves auditory elements, they must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or the action is lost. ", and refers to *permanently* deaf characters, strongly implying that temporarily deafened characters *do* need to make such a check.

Paizo, please update the Deafened condition in the Remaster or in an errata document


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Or we could just wait another three weeks and see what the Remaster actually says before ranting about what it might or might not have in it.


3 weeks have passed. I repeat my request! (for the next errata, of course)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion / Is Deafened meant to impair spell casting? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
Cantrips are Not Focus Spells