Hunt Prey while tracking + Crit success on Monster Hunter?

[N N 959]

Let's say a Ranger is tracking something and decides to designate it as Prey. Monster Hunter says the Ranger can immediately make a Recall Knowledge check. Ranger crit succeeds the Ranger "and its allies" get a +1 on the next attack. However, when they finally find the creature ...some hours later. Ranger wins init and designate something else as his/her Prey.

Do the allies still get the benefit if they attack the original creature?

Monster Hunter wrote:

You and allies you tell gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against that prey. You can give bonuses from Monster Hunter only once per day against a particular creature.

I would guess that the use of "that prey" suggests it still has to be the Ranger's current Prey. If so...

What happens if a Ranger get a Crit Success on RK and switch targets....then comes back to that target later in the fight? Does the benefit suddenly apply?

Does the Ranger have to be seen or heard by the party to convey the benefit? If not, then death of the Ranger does not end the benefit. Nor does the Ranger have to be present during the combat...i.e. designate Target and leave before the fight?

[Alchemical Wonder]

“If you use Hunt Prey against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new prey gains the designation.”

Since the creature loses the designation, it is no longer prey and you lose any benefits of that designation including the circumstance bonus from Monster Hunter.

Doesn’t matter if you attack something else before you attack your prey, the first attack against that prey gets a circumstance bonus.

Mechanically, being sensed doesn’t seem to be necessary to share the benefits as far as I can tell, but I’d say your party would need to be told the flavor of your Recall Knowledge result to receive the benefits.

“The designation lasts until your next daily preparation.”

Only designating a new prey or your next daily preparation ends the designation.

[N N 959]

Thanks for weighing in.

Alchemical Wonder wrote:

“If you use Hunt Prey against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new prey gains the designation.”

Since the creature loses the designation, it is no longer prey and you lose any benefits of that designation including the circumstance bonus from Monster Hunter.

Yes, I suggested that interpretation in my OP, but Monster Hunter doesn't explicitly require that the target remain Prey.

Monster Hunter wrote:

You and allies you tell gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll against that prey.

This is ambiguous as to whether the bonus is lost when you designate a new Prey. As written, you get a bonus against that prey, because you just used Monster Hunter as a result of choosing a prey. It doesn't say "or until you designate a new prey." If that's what is intended, then it needs to be added.

Quote:

Doesn’t matter if you attack something else before you attack your prey, the first attack against that prey gets a circumstance bonus.

Yeah...that part isn't ambiguous.

Quote:

Mechanically, being sensed doesn’t seem to be necessary to share the benefits as far as I can tell, but I’d say your party would need to be told the flavor of your Recall Knowledge result to receive the benefits.

I agree it seems logical that there has to be communication of some sort, but it's oddly not required. Contrast that with Scout's Warning which explicitly attaches Audible/Visual labels to the action.

Scout's Warning wrote:

Depending on whether you use gestures or call out, this action gains either the visual or auditory trait, respectively.

Clearly Paizo is thinking about the consequences of communicating information that carries a mechanical benefit. Is Monster Hunter an oversight? Neither Monster Hunter or Warden impose a label.

So going back to the original question, a Ranger could track something, declare it Prey, crit success on Monster Hunter and impart the bonus to allies, but then go off in another direction. Technically this still conveys the bonus. The Ranger doesn't have to be seen or heard during the attack to get the bonus. That being the case, it doesn't logically follow that designating a new prey would cancel the previous bonus.

If we are going to attach an aspect of realism, we might say that the bonus conveyed is based on the Ranger identifying the weaknesses of the Prey. Those weakness remain known until they are exploited, at which point the creature is presumed to defend agains them. Sot it would make sense that if the Ranger doesn't have to be present for the bonus to be used, the bonus would persist even if a new prey is designated.

If Paizo is reading this, I would welcome a generous interpretation of this ability and the persistence of the bonus from MH and MW until they are used. This would really help improve an ability that has an exceedingly low chance of firing until level 10. Creature not only has to fall under Nature, but the Ranger has to crit succeed using a tertiary stat. Allowing the benefit to persist until used, does not seem to be unreasonable and is justifiable given the narrative.

If the benefit is lost upon setting a new target, then what happens if you circle back around?

Quote:

You can give bonuses from Monster Hunter only once per day against a particular creature.

This seems to suggest the Ranger can only use MH once against any creature. So it would help if that bonus, once conveyed, remains until used. That would alleviate the need for the Ranger to try and game the system about when to roll the RK check. It would make the benefit more useful to the party and alleviate the burden of the Ranger having to wait until everyone attacked his/her current prey before switching to a new one. Otherwise, you're further hamstringing this feat by requiring the Ranger sit around and wait until everyone gets their attack in.

If we consider Monster Warden, it makes less sense for the benefit to be lost upon a new designation.

Quote:

You understand how to defend yourself and others against your prey. When you grant bonuses from Monster Hunter, you and your allies also each gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next saving throw against that particular creature and to your AC against that creature’s next attack against you.

As written, this seems to persist. I would think it would be less complicated if both for these work the same way with regard to duration.

**crossing fingers and hoping Paizo makes these work the same and until used***

[Alchemical Wonder]

I agree that flavor wise it doesn’t make sense to lose the circumstance bonuses simply because you’ve chosen new prey, but my interpretation indicates there’s a mechanic incentive to finish your hunts before starting a new one. Seems like a DM call.

[N N 959]

Alchemical Wonder wrote:

, but my interpretation indicates there’s a mechanic incentive to finish your hunts before starting a new one.

While I can agree that the way Monster Hunter is written a GM might disallow the bonus upon choosing a new pray, I'm not seeing the implied incentive to finish a prey any quicker than one would without Monster Hunter. Can you elaborate?

Quote:

Seems like a DM call.

Currently yes, but this is not something that should be subject to table variation, so I hope Paizo answers. I really don't want to spend time discussing this at the table.

Cancelling the bonus on changing prey really feels like a bad mechanic for game play. It creates all kinds of frustration for the Ranger arising from other player's not optimizing the Ranger's Prey. I really hope Paizo clears this up in favorable way. Or at least clears it up, so I can know not to take this feat if it doesn't persist.

[UndeadViking]

N N 959 wrote:

Alchemical Wonder wrote:

, but my interpretation indicates there’s a mechanic incentive to finish your hunts before starting a new one.

While I can agree that the way Monster Hunter is written a GM might disallow the bonus upon choosing a new pray, I'm not seeing the implied incentive to finish a prey any quicker than one would without Monster Hunter. Can you elaborate?

Quote:

Seems like a DM call.

Currently yes, but this is not something that should be subject to table variation, so I hope Paizo answers. I really don't want to spend time discussing this at the table.

Cancelling the bonus on changing prey really feels like a bad mechanic for game play. It creates all kinds of frustration for the Ranger arising from other player's not optimizing the Ranger's Prey. I really hope Paizo clears this up in favorable way. Or at least clears it up, so I can know not to take this feat if it doesn't persist.

Good points. Pathfinder 2E seems to have quite a few rules that are designed purely for mechanics and game balance but the "flavor" or rationale/explanation for them are vague or don't mesh well with the mechanics.

Inevitably, situations arise in actual game play where resolving each unique scenario requires interpreting rules, and if they are too vaguely written, it's not helpful.

Unlike video game MMOs where the mechanics simply are what they are and the types of scenarios are always going to be pretty much the same, in person RPGs allow for more realistic situations which require reasoning out what is happening, and therefore the rules need to be as clear as possible to facilitate this.