I am confused on Diplomacy's Make an Impression function. Does it stack with itself? Can a PC approach an unfriendly NPC and spend a few minutes making repeated Make an Impression attempts, until they finally bring the NPC up to helpful for a Request? Even on a critical failure, so long as the NPC does not drop down to hostile, the PC could keep on retrying the Make an Impression checks. Sure, the helpful attitude lasts for only as long as the current social interaction, but that can sometimes be all that is needed.
Page 495 suggests that it is possible to gradually shift an NPC's attitude up to helpful. Is this intentional, the stacking of Make an Impression?
For that matter, since the conditions appendix says that PCs can never be affected by attitude adjustments such as friendly hand helpful, does this mean that PCs are immune to half of the effects of a Charm spell, which rely on the friendly and helpful conditions?
Does anyone have any ideas on this? I am running my first session of the full release soon, and I am lost on whether or not the book intends for the stacking of Make an Impression.
It is possible if you engage in further conversation. I would say that further attempts at flattery would probably be adjusted up in DC somewhat to account for there only being so much flattery a given NPC can take. I would let the details of the fiction guide this and take a look at the DC Adjustments table on p. 504.
Campbell wrote: It is possible if you engage in further conversation. I would say that further attempts at flattery would probably be adjusted up in DC somewhat to account for there only being so much flattery a given NPC can take. I would let the details of the fiction guide this and take a look at the DC Adjustments table on p. 504. I would say yes. The idea of Make an Impression is to engage in a 1 minute conversation in order to improve someone's relation (likely in order to make a subsequent Request, once they are friendly/helpful).
The skill only says that the effects of the impression run out at the end of the social interaction, not at the end of conversation.
So the way it would potentially go is:
1) Enter a social interaction of any sorts (this could be actual roleplay where each character in turn (or out of turn) talk to the NPC.
2) At some stage during the interaction, someone may decide they wish to make an impression - since this is an Exploration activity which takes 1 minute, I would personally just hand wave the roleplaying part for this...(nobody wants to sit through 1 minute of one character roleplaying - too boring). After the player announce this is what they wish to do, make a roll for a change of influence.
3) Now you can resume the interaction (unless the NPC turned hostile or something)... if the NPC is now friendly/helpful - other characters can make a Request of them (this is just an action so ~2-3 seconds), or alternatively just continue the roleplaying - ask the NPC questions, use the Lie action (which takes a round or more), or whatever is requierd.
4) Now it comes back to some character who they want to try and improve the relation further... that would require another 1 minute of conversation... etc.
At some point however, the NPC has some shit to do...like the laundry or something, they aren't going to stick around for however many 1 minute duration, no matter the flattery.
Personally, I don't allow more than one check of anything in my game (1 disable device attempt, 1 recall knowledge attempt, etc.), in the spirit of 'failing forward'. There is nothing that kills the game faster than someone attempting the same check over and over again. So I've taken the approach of - it is either something that isn't optional (such as the NPC holding an important clue the players MUST know) - in which case they get it without any check and with minimal conversation. OR it is an optional clue/loot/whatever, in which case they get one attempt and if they fail I just let my players know it is time to move on. A bit metagamey - but it works, and much less frustrating.
Campbell wrote: It is possible if you engage in further conversation. I would say that further attempts at flattery would probably be adjusted up in DC somewhat to account for there only being so much flattery a given NPC can take. I would let the details of the fiction guide this and take a look at the DC Adjustments table on p. 504. I would say yes. The idea of Make an Impression is to engage in a 1 minute conversation in order to improve someone's relation (likely in order to make a subsequent Request, once they are friendly/helpful).
The skill only says that the effects of the impression run out at the end of the social interaction, not at the end of conversation.
So the way it would potentially go is:
1) Enter a social interaction of any sorts (this could be actual roleplay where each character in turn (or out of turn) talk to the NPC.
2) At some stage during the interaction, someone may decide they wish to make an impression - since this is an Exploration activity which takes 1 minute, I would personally just hand wave the roleplaying part for this...(nobody wants to sit through 1 minute of one character roleplaying - too boring). After the player announce this is what they wish to do, make a roll for a change of influence.
3) Now you can resume the interaction (unless the NPC turned hostile or something)... if the NPC is now friendly/helpful - other characters can make a Request of them (this is just an action so ~2-3 seconds), or alternatively just continue the roleplaying - ask the NPC questions, use the Lie action (which takes a round or more), or whatever is requierd.
4) Now it comes back to some character who they want to try and improve the relation further... that would require another 1 minute of conversation... etc.
At some point however, the NPC has some shit to do...like the laundry or something, they aren't going to stick around for however many 1 minute duration, no matter the flattery.
Personally, I don't allow more than one check of anything in my game (1 disable device attempt, 1 recall knowledge attempt, etc.), in the spirit of 'failing forward'. There is nothing that kills the game faster than someone attempting the same check over and over again. So I've taken the approach of - it is either something that isn't optional (such as the NPC holding an important clue the players MUST know) - in which case they get it without any check and with minimal conversation. OR it is an optional clue/loot/whatever, in which case they get one attempt and if they fail I just let my players know it is time to move on. A bit metagamey - but it works, and much less frustrating.
Campbell wrote: It is possible if you engage in further conversation. I would say that further attempts at flattery would probably be adjusted up in DC somewhat to account for there only being so much flattery a given NPC can take. I would let the details of the fiction guide this and take a look at the DC Adjustments table on p. 504. I would say yes. The idea of Make an Impression is to engage in a 1 minute conversation in order to improve someone's relation (likely in order to make a subsequent Request, once they are friendly/helpful).
The skill only says that the effects of the impression run out at the end of the social interaction, not at the end of conversation.
So the way it would potentially go is:
1) Enter a social interaction of any sorts (this could be actual roleplay where each character in turn (or out of turn) talk to the NPC.
2) At some stage during the interaction, someone may decide they wish to make an impression - since this is an Exploration activity which takes 1 minute, I would personally just hand wave the roleplaying part for this...(nobody wants to sit through 1 minute of one character roleplaying - too boring). After the player announce this is what they wish to do, make a roll for a change of influence.
3) Now you can resume the interaction (unless the NPC turned hostile or something)... if the NPC is now friendly/helpful - other characters can make a Request of them (this is just an action so ~2-3 seconds), or alternatively just continue the roleplaying - ask the NPC questions, use the Lie action (which takes a round or more), or whatever is requierd.
4) Now it comes back to some character who they want to try and improve the relation further... that would require another 1 minute of conversation... etc.
At some point however, the NPC has some shit to do...like the laundry or something, they aren't going to stick around for however many 1 minute duration, no matter the flattery.
Personally, I don't allow more than one check of anything in my game (1 disable device attempt, 1 recall knowledge attempt, etc.), in the spirit of 'failing forward'. There is nothing that kills the game faster than someone attempting the same check over and over again. So I've taken the approach of - it is either something that isn't optional (such as the NPC holding an important clue the players MUST know) - in which case they get it without any check and with minimal conversation. OR it is an optional clue/loot/whatever, in which case they get one attempt and if they fail I just let my players know it is time to move on. A bit metagamey - but it works, and much less frustrating.
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I'd say no, or else the critical success would be meaningless.
However, you would be able to improve his attitudine towards you and your party by achieving important goals, or completing tasks for him.
But as for the first impression, that's it.
Or else gogo spam diplomacy with nonsense, making a npc your best friend forever in 5 minutes.
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I'd say no, it doesn't stack. The ruling for that being:
- Make an Impression itself says the attitude shift is only temporary. So the target still has its base attitude. Any repeated attempt to make an impression always goes from this base attitude.
- It is with this still possible to try many times and hope for a crit.
If you roll many times (against a very patient NPC) and get a crit. success and a crit. failure, those would "stack" and shift the attitude to one step better. (similar how the effects of many Aid actions stack)
The rules about stacking multiple attitude shifts on page 495 are for social encounters that the DM plans and builds for. I don't want a simple mechanic like Make an Impression bring back the "make a helpful ally out of anyone with high enough diplomacy".
Edit: So if you really want to improve the attitude of an NPC by 3 steps, you'll have to help them substantially (a little quest, not just a check) to improve their base attitude and THEN you can crit on Make an Impression for 2 further steps.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The baseline of a Diplomacy (Make an Impression) check wouldn't allow for "stacking" or repeated attempts to roll more dice.
However, I think the story and the way the PCs approach the negociation could well call for additional checks, and could even give a favorable bonus to the roll.
I've just been writing up a negociation scene with an NPC who begins the interaction with an attitude of unfriendly. But the previous stages of the campaign have given the PCs a number of key arguments they can use to convince this NPC to warm up to them. I won't belabor the example with specific information here, but basically I have planned for the NPC's reaction to various pieces of information that should encourage her to change her view of the PCs and perhaps even take up common cause with them against a greater foe.
IMHO, Diplomacy checks shouldn't depend only on die rolls for success. I'm not asking for the players themselves to be silver-tongued diplomancers. But deciding what information they share with the NPC and what strategies they use to try to convince her should defintely play a role, and can help shape the target DCs into a more manageable number. Don't forget that the rules on DCs specifically call out for the DM intervening with situation modifiers of +2 or even +5 if the players manage to change the basis for the interaction to succeed. GRanting additional rolls is also part of the DM's purview.
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