Initiative and stealth

[dlld]

So if I'm reading the rules correctly, it's entirely possible for either a PC or a monster to fail to notice the other side but still be first in initiative. For simplicity sake lets just take this into a context of 1 vs 1.

If so, what happens then? I can't find anything substantial about being 'surprised' do i just assume at the start of an encounter the stealthing side becomes 'undetected' rather then 'unnoticed' by the entity who rolled a higher initiative so he can reasonably start using his actions to seek? Given there is no exploration version of seeking as far as i can tell, it's purely a encounter thing and not something a guard would 'spam' his entire watch every 6 seconds so it'd make no sense for him to suddenly randomly begin to seek if absolutely nothing tipped him off.

Or does the one who rolled highest initiative just stand there twiddling his thumbs completely unaware of the impending threat and ignore his turn?

[Deadmanwalking]

How do you win initiative and not know where the other side is?

If you won it with Perception, that's a roll to notice the other side, if they're using Perception, they're not hiding and you notice them.

The only way I can think of is for both sides to be entirely composed of those using Stealth, in which case I think the combat doesn't happen because nobody notices anybody.

[Bidmaron]

The DM is free to go into encounter mode when (s)he deems appropriate. If there is a situation where the PCs (or bad guys for that matter) are doing something in an effort to guarantee surprise, start the encounter mode early, and then, yes, if the bad guy won initiative, he would simply do nothing until the PCs went. You might narrate it by describing that the guard pauses in his step for a moment but then moves on.

[Eltacolibre]

Exploration phase if you attempt to sneak on someone, it is the Avoid Notice Exploration activity.

You roll a stealth check instead of a perception check for your initiative and to see if the enemies notice your group (they roll perception as normal).

If somehow, you manage to surprise everybody, I literally all the enemies. They would be flat-flooted (-2 penalty to their AC) until combat begins.

You can read about the Avoid Notice action on p.479.

[dlld]

"If you’re Avoiding Notice at the start of
an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a
Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see
if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as
normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results)."

Important part is that its success is based vs perception DC not a roll.

DC = perception + 10

Party all uses Avoid notice, they all for simplicity sake roll a 16 stealth and initiative combined per avoiding notice.

The enemies perception DC is 15. The enemy does not notice the party.

The enemies then roll perception as their initiative, they all roll 17s, they have higher initiative but they fail to spot the party as nowhere does it say that perception initiative also acts as a detection roll for stealth that i can find, stealth is always 'contested' with the DC as far as i can tell.

Same goes for seek being contested with a stealth DC rather then contesting the actual stealth roll.

"The GM attempts a single secret Perception check for you
and compares the result to the Stealth DCs of any undetected
or hidden creatures in the area"

[The Raven Black]

This reminds me fondly of PF1 abilities which allowed you to act normally in a surprise round. I won initiative but nothing special had happened yet.

PC-sense tingling :-))

[Gaterie]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

How do you win initiative and not know where the other side is?

If you won it with Perception, that's a roll to notice the other side, if they're using Perception, they're not hiding and you notice them.

The only way I can think of is for both sides to be entirely composed of those using Stealth, in which case I think the combat doesn't happen because nobody notices anybody.

This isn't how the game game works.

1/ There isn't such a thing as an "opposed roll" in PF2. The hide and sneak actions are opposed to the perception DC, the seek action uses the stealth DC, there isn't any action that oppose a stealth roll with a perception roll. If you decide to create an action using an opposed roll, more power to you, but it's your houserule and it has nothing to do is the rule section. You can check the rules if you want, and quote the precise action opposing a stealth roll with a perception roll. In the actual game, if the stealth roll beats the perception DC while the perception roll is between the stealth roll and the stealth DC, then the non-hidden group goes first while not knowing there are hidden enemies.

1a/ anyway, the game doesn't give any way to detect a hidden enemy more than 30 feet away. If the fights start at a distance of 35 feet, the non-hidden group has no way to detect the hidden group - except GM fiat.

2/ A and B are travelling together; A is scouting while B is sneaking. An enemy, C, is sneaking around. C can see A, since A isn't hidden; Roll init ! A rolls Perception, B rolls stealth, C rolls stealth. Let's say B wins init. How does he know where the other side is ? He didn't even roll for Perception.

2a/ Let's say there's a long corridor with a chandelier every 10 feet; Merisiel decides to go through the corridor by jumping from chandelier to chandelier to use the nonsensical rule about using acrobatics as init. Someone is hidden in the middle of the corridor. Roll init ! Acrobatics vs stealth. Merisiel wins.

[Deadmanwalking]

You're correct for the most part. The rest of the thread (which is 5 weeks old...I hadn't yet gotten a full grasp on some rules four days into the game) already dealt with all that, though.

Your point #1a is factually false, though. First, if the person with Stealth fails to beat your Perception DC you just know exactly where they are, regardless of distance. Second, you can Seek in any cone or burst within line of sight. Which means you can Seek in a 15 foot burst (or 30 foot cone) a full mile away if you're on an open plain with good visibility.

You do need line of sight, but that's a whole different thing.

[Gaterie]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Your point #1a is factually false, though. First, if the person with Stealth fails to beat your Perception DC you just know exactly where they are, regardless of distance. Second, you can Seek in any cone or burst within line of sight. Which means you can Seek in a 15 foot burst (or 30 foot cone) a full mile away if you're on an open plain with good visibility.

You do need line of sight, but that's a whole different thing.

dully noted (I can't edit my last post to make the correction).

[Claxon]

Honestly the whole thing would be simpler if they got rid of the perception DC thing for NPCs and just did a roll so that you could have perception and initiative in one go, just like PCs.

I think that might be a house rule I propose for my games.