animate object / create undead rituals

[Joey Cote]

Am I misunderstanding something in these rules or is it very difficult to use these two ritual to create a minion that is near your spell level cap?

Example, animate object to make an alchemical golem, a lvl 9 monster. According to table 7-1 the animate object spell to create a lvl 9 construct needs a lvl 6 spell, so the caster needs to be 11/12th minimum, lets go with 13. A maxed out lvl 13 wizard with a 22 int (18 base, 2 from level increase, 2 from item), mastery in Arcana (13 lvl + 6 for mastery) and a Greater Hat of the Magi (+2 item bonus) would have an Arcana base of 27. The rules for rituals say that the DC is treated as a level twice the spell level and is very hard as well. So the ritual is treated as a lvl 6 spell, which makes it a lvl 12 challenge, making it a base 30 + 5 for very hard (table 10-5 and 10-6). Now, according to the rituals in order to create a minion it must be 4 levels lower then you and you need to make a critical success. So the lvl 13 wizard above needs to roll a 18+ and spend days and 2100gp, for a 15% chance at creating a minion. If they succeed (animate object version) but don't get a critical success the construct created can be given one order, which it obeys and thereafter ignores all other commands from the creator. In the case of create undead the undead is friendly (unless it is unintelligent in which case it ignores the creator but goes on a rampage) , so it might choose to follow the creator's instructions.

15% chance after spending thousands of gold and days of work seems pretty bad. If the wizard had gotten a critical success on the secondary roll (which is only a standard DC twice the spell level as level) the wizard gets a +2 to the Arcana roll. But that means the wizard (assuming the same base for the skill) needs to roll a 13+. And that means the wizard has a 25% chance to make a minion. I don't see any spell or ability that will give the wizard a better chance. And 2100gp is pretty huge even at level 13, 1/3rd the starting wealth of such a character.

Now, the alchemical golem does appear to be a tough guy with good damage and hp even considering it is four levels lower then its creator, so maybe my problem is I need to expect less? But if you go much lower then that, the minion becomes significantly less useful in combat.

[Eltacolibre]

If the question is, is it hard? Yes, it's very hard to have a permanent minion near your level.

[Deadmanwalking]

Uh...if you're gonna make it a minion, a Success is as good as a Critical Success. The only difference between the two is what it does if you don't make it a minion.

[Joey Cote]

Yeah, I see I misread the success now, even on a straight success if it is 4 levels lower you can make it a minion. There doesn't seem to be any difference between a critical success and a regular success except what happens if you don't make the critter a minion.

[[e-mail]]

I do not agree with this at all I'm a huge fan of necromancy but story wise they just shanked playable necromancer and made it to where they need to break there own ritual to have any boss man necro

[[e-mail]]

The way it written down not even the whispering tyrant can send undead army's now due to how this works if the undead is not a minion and just base undead gonna need to home rule this

[Captain Morgan]

[e-mail] wrote:

The way it written down not even the whispering tyrant can send undead army's now due to how this works if the undead is not a minion and just base undead gonna need to home rule this

That's not true. There are a lot of ways to make it work, you just can't make every undead your minion. Intelligent undead can still be pressed into service in a variety of ways, and mindless undead can often be given one purpose like "guard this room" and they are fine.

Plus, the Whispering Tyrant is a mythic character (which we have no reference for yet) who could know forgotten rare or unique spells. Just because we don't have the option yet doesn't mean he doesn't.

[Garretmander]

Making minions and friendly undead npcs is easy.

Making near level helpful undead npcs or high level skeletons to guard doors is very hard. Making low level ones is only a little bit easier.

I'd guess the whispering tyrant has some sort of success = crit success ability honestly.

[Captain Morgan]

Garretmander wrote:

Making minions and friendly undead npcs is easy.

Making near level helpful undead npcs or high level skeletons to guard doors is very hard. Making low level ones is only a little bit easier.

I'd guess the whispering tyrant has some sort of success = crit success ability honestly.

He could also just have an absurdly high skill modifier for that.