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Book of Exalted Deeds from 3.5 came out with a "good" poison that was called a ravage, and it affected you even if you were immune to poison. It counted as poison for Ability Focus, but not for resistances or immunities. There was even a feat.
Touch of Golden Ice (Google and 3.5 WotC Book of Exalted Deeds). Some of you may even be familiar with it. It's an Exalted feat. The reverse of the Vile feats from Book of Vile Darkness. Unfortunately, there was no such thing in BoVD because they already had poison, and good guys didn't use poison because it was considered "evil" to do so.
I wish to rectify this. Firstly, I'm going to convert Touch of Golden Ice, and then make the evil version Touch of Black Ice. Mostly because I'm running the evil campaign, Way of the Wicked, and both good guys and bad guys each will have their own people with natural attacks.
So, conversion time.
The stuff reads as "Contact DC 14, deals 1d6 + opponent's Cha mod Dexterity damage on the initial, and 2d6 on the secondary." The DC 14 is CON-based. It has to because it's listed as a "supernatural poison".
Conversion guide has it that you total all of the damage, making it 3d6 or 18 max damage. This is a 1d3 effect for 6 rounds, and requires 3 saves. Wow.
So in total, it does "Ravage (does not count as poison for immunities) - Contact Fort DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con-modifier; 1d3 + Opponent's CHA-modifier damage to Dexterity, 3 saves.
Against a country of clerics and paladins, that could get incredibly scary. Of course, you put that on a monk with flurry of blows on both sides of the fight, and that becomes even more scary because that's a Fort save for each successful hit.
You should remove the link. The vast majority of material on that site is not Open Content, and so should not be there. Its not legal.
Out of curiosity, how did you figure out that 3 saves would be needed? I seem to remember there not being any particular guidelines on that point in Paizo's 3.5/PF conversion guide, so I'd love to hear if any other sources have a useful rule of thumb.
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Out of curiosity, how did you figure out that 3 saves would be needed? I seem to remember there not being any particular guidelines on that point in Paizo's 3.5/PF conversion guide, so I'd love to hear if any other sources have a useful rule of thumb.
No, I took the number you divided the max damage by as being the number of saves you had to do. Other than that, it just says 1 or 2 saves. For this though, it states it's two saves in the original.
It's probably a no-brainer act, but so is being good and using their feat. Unless you're a LG paladin, you're not really going to fall off the wagon, nor have some kind of life crisis about whether you should do something or not.
I've already found the solution to my problem and DC stacks.
You missed the point about exalted feats... You are held to a paladin level (or greater) level of goodness
Stop looking at the BoED as a bunch of cool powers. Inherent in those abilities is the philosophy behind them. Yes touch of golden ice is nice. It only affects evil because it turns their inherent evil and moral corruption against them
And the static dc prevents high level monks from dominating the game.
Also please remember its always on. You turn it off.
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It's probably a no-brainer act, but so is being good and using their feat. Unless you're a LG paladin, you're not really going to fall off the wagon, nor have some kind of life crisis about whether you should do something or not.
I've already found the solution to my problem and DC stacks.
You missed the point about exalted feats... You are held to a paladin level (or greater) level of goodness
Stop looking at the BoED as a bunch of cool powers. Inherent in those abilities is the philosophy behind them. Yes touch of golden ice is nice. It only affects evil because it turns their inherent evil and moral corruption against them
And the static dc prevents high level monks from dominating the game.
Also please remember its always on. You turn it off.
Believe me when I say monks CAN'T dominate with this feat. It's a touch attack. As in, the same touch attack a lich gets. Once per round.
I'm going to have to agree with AdamSouza here - the opposite of a 'good poison' is not a good poison for evil characters. You are being too literal, and its really a case of apples and oranges. poison is already evil, and the BoED is giving the 'good guys' something they can use in lieu of it. You are then giving the bad guys something that outshines what the good guys are getting to counteract the prevalence of normal poison amongst evil types. Being good (all the time) is hard, being evil is easy as pie... its just not the same.
If you want to give the bad guys an equivalent counter, then you should give them some sort of healing magic - probably necromantic (like Necromantic Touch). By your logic, if you gave the bad guys this, then the good guys should get something equivalent (which they already have, to a slightly lesser degree, which is precisely what is going on with the poison).
Believe me when I say monks CAN'T dominate with this feat. It's a touch attack. As in, the same touch attack a lich gets. Once per round.It's probably a no-brainer act, but so is being good and using their feat. Unless you're a LG paladin, you're not really going to fall off the wagon, nor have some kind of life crisis about whether you should do something or not.
I've already found the solution to my problem and DC stacks.
You missed the point about exalted feats... You are held to a paladin level (or greater) level of goodness
Stop looking at the BoED as a bunch of cool powers. Inherent in those abilities is the philosophy behind them. Yes touch of golden ice is nice. It only affects evil because it turns their inherent evil and moral corruption against them
And the static dc prevents high level monks from dominating the game.
Also please remember its always on. You turn it off.
If I recall correctly ToGI allows its damage to be added to natural and unarmed attacks as well. Don't have my books on me at the moment to confirm it though.
I recall houseruling it to allow the DC to scale (based on Level/2 + Wis mod, I believe) for a Sainted Swordsage and didn't personally consider it broken. Things at the party's CR with a decent Fort save typically made the save most of the time, and those with a poor one were either casters and held their own fine or were screwed anyway.
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Here's the wiki on it, everyone. And it's how I'm going to rule it.
And poison is junk. It's crazy stupid expensive, hard to get ingredients, and everyone over level 5 is immune to it in some way. Ravages on the other hand, you can never be immune to it. You just pray you can beat the DC if you're evil. And no, you do not have to be the epitome of good to use the feat. If that was the case the prereq would be LG and nothing else. I've seen NG and CG that border on CN regularly who have all of the exalted feats, and no DM I've ever seen has made them lose it. Now, not be the epitome of law or chaos, and you can expect to lose your paladin abilities. Go figure.
And evil does have an evil healing ability, thanks to that of Fire Mountain Games. Clerics can channel to heal evil and wound good guys at the same time. Win-Win for them.
If your touch attack deals damage, then yes, you'd deal damage with the feat. Otherwise, no. A monk can't touch you and do unarmed damage unless it specifically states so. Liches on the other hand can. House rules can be made to stipulate otherwise.
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Here's the wiki on it, everyone. And it's how I'm going to rule it.
And poison is junk. It's crazy stupid expensive, hard to get ingredients, and everyone over level 5 is immune to it in some way. Ravages on the other hand, you can never be immune to it. You just pray you can beat the DC if you're evil. And no, you do not have to be the epitome of good to use the feat. If that was the case the prereq would be LG and nothing else. I've seen NG and CG that border on CN regularly who have all of the exalted feats, and no DM I've ever seen has made them lose it. Now, not be the epitome of law or chaos, and you can expect to lose your paladin abilities. Go figure.
And evil does have an evil healing ability, thanks to that of Fire Mountain Games. Clerics can channel to heal evil and wound good guys at the same time. Win-Win for them.
If your touch attack deals damage, then yes, you'd deal damage with the feat. Otherwise, no. A monk can't touch you and do unarmed damage unless it specifically states so. Liches on the other hand can. House rules can be made to stipulate otherwise.
"The wiki"? No, that's one guy's houserules that you just happen to like because it supports your point. The closest there is to an actual wiki is the RAW according to the books themselves. In fact here's another discussion about this very topic from the WOTC forums
So let's sart with RAW.
The Book of Exalted Deeds is for players who aren’t satisfied by slapping a good alignment label on their character and then acting no different from the neutral characters in the party. This book is all about how to make a good alignment mean something, and how to live up to the ideals implied in that alignment.
And...
Many players would just as soon overlook these questions, believing they detract from the fun of the game. There’s nothing wrong with that. For groups that want to address these issues, however, the Book of Exalted Deeds opens the way. At the same time, it presents a whole host of new opportunities for player characters of good alignment and righteous conviction: new feats, spells, prestige classes, magic and mundane items, and rules to help address the situations they face. These goodies aren’t just for the cleric and paladin, either characters who sometimes are the sole voices of morality in an adventuring party. While paladins and good clerics will certainly find much of use, characters of all classes can benefit from the new mate-rial in the Book of Exalted Deeds—if they are willing and able to walk the straight and narrow path of the exalted.
And...
This book introduces a new type of feat: the exalted feat. Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good deities, celestials, or similar creatures.
These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are). A character must have the DM’s permission to take an exalted feat. In many cases, a ritual must be performed; often this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow, for example, in the presence of a celestial being. A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1).
Aura of Good: A character with at least one exalted feat radiates an aura of good with a power equal to her character level (see the detect good spell), as if she were a paladin or a cleric of a good deity.
All three of these point out that any DM who lets characters act anything other than GOOD (L/N/C doesn't matter) is asleep at the switch. Those characters WILL lose their exalted feats. You're not gonna Meteor Storm the orc encampment where you will kill "innocent" children and non-combatants.
Btw, LG is not the "epitome of good". Actually that honor goes to NG (good without considerations to the ethics of law & chaos). Playing characters who are *that* good is tough. Read Chapter 1 in BoED about the nature of good. There's a lot to consider.
Now let's talk about "poison". The only 2 classes that gain any poison immunity are druid and monk. Otherwise you have to hope you can find or make magic items to help. And there's no garauntee that you will be able to do that. Periapt of Proof against poison is a 27k magic item. And how many other "neck" slot items are there? So I don't know where you can say anyone above 5th level is immune.
"Touch attacks" According to the feat description
Benefit:Any evil creature you touch with your bare hand, fist, or natural weapon is ravaged by golden ice (see Ravages and Afflictions in Chapter 3: Exalted Equipment for effects)
When was th last time you "touched" someone with your bite/claws/slam/tail/fist? Unless you were going to "flurry of b*tchslaps" maybe? That's why the DC doesn't change. So that your high level monsters have a chance to stick around.
Oh, and remember, let's say you bring their DEX down to 0. So the bad guy is helpless. What are you going to do about it? You can't just kill them. Because killing a helpless foe is an evil act - bye bye exalted feats...
Playing a paladin/cleric/exalted character right is a challenge. Playing an exalted paladin or cleric is even harder.
Play the game you want and have fun doing doing so. I would say that if you're going to make changes (or you feel that something is "nerfed or useless") understand why it was done that way in the first place before you make the change. Your games will be the better for it.
JohnBear
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I've touched lots of enemies with my bite/claw/slam/tail/fist. And you know what? Every time I do, I don't provoke AoO. Same with other players in my group.
And I guess every DM I've ever had has been asleep at the wheel for Exalted feats because we've always used them, and most of us were NG, and we've done some things that were almost questionable, and we've always kept our feats.
And no, the "house rule" version on the wiki is not being used because "it supports my point". It's the only one that makes sense. And that WotC? I've read it before. I've even made my own. NO ONE KNOWS. It's all a guess. So, I'll take the wiki version. It makes sense to me. I've seen people abuse it in my groups where I've been the player. I know the DM doesn't like it. He's even house ruled it so that it acts as a SLA and there it's based on your Charisma instead of your CON like poison. Doesn't make sense, but it's how that one DM could allow it in his game. As well, the wiki version makes it so that you can only use it once a round. I'm perfectly okay with that. Liches only get theirs once a round, so it makes sense.
Other than that, thanks everyone for the help, this thread is now closed.
Your game <shrug>
