Perfumer alchemist

[SaltMiner]

Wilderness origin is up on Nethys, and i was wondering how perfumer bombs work. All emphasis are mine.

Effervescent Bombs (Su):

Rather than deal direct damage, a perfumer’s bombs create an effervescent puddle in a 5-foot radius for a number of rounds equal to the alchemist’s intelligence bonus (minimum 1). Each creature within this area takes 1d4 points of fire damage immediately and again each round it remains within or enters the puddle. A creature caught in the puddle when it is first created can attempt a Reflex save (DC = 10 + half the perfumer’s level + the perfumer’s Intelligence modifier) for half damage. The effervescent bombs’ damage increases by 1d4 at 3rd level and every odd level thereafter. [b]Effervescent bombs otherwise functions as bombs, and discoveries that apply to bombs apply to effervescent bombs.

This alters bomb.

So , let's go to original alchemist bombs:

Bomb (Su):

In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.

Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Thrown bombs have a range of 20 feet and use the Throw Splash Weapon special attack. Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist’s bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike). Splash damage from an alchemist bomb is always equal to the bomb’s minimum damage (so if the bomb would deal 2d6+4 points of fire damage on a direct hit, its splash damage would be 6 points of fire damage). Those caught in the splash damage can attempt a Reflex save for half damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier.

Alchemists can learn new types of bombs as discoveries (see the Discovery ability) as they level up. An alchemist’s bomb, like an extract, becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else.

that leads me to :

Throw Splash Weapon special attack:

A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).

You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can’t target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you’re aiming at the creature.

If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.

My questions are : are all damages from thrown splash weapon that does not direct it splash damage,meanings effervescent bombs deals splash damage and have a splash radius? Can i use the explosive bomb discoveries?

[Dave Justus]

My reading is that that changes the bomb from a splash weapon to an area effect and thus splash specific things would not apply, although I think you do still roll to 'hit' the square you are targeting.

It could certainly be clearer though, and the 'otherwise functions as bombs' needs more clarification (as is often the case with otherwise functions clauses.)

They really should have spent another paragraph to fully detail out how it works and left the otherwise functions completely off, because it doesn't particularly help at all.

[Themetricsystem]

Yes all damage from Effervescent Bombs are Splash Damage, and do not EVER target a Creature, you are simply aiming at specific locations, never a creatures AC, so I guess in effect it's like a Splash Weapon AoE? This isn't really a very well worded ability that's for sure.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't apply Explosive Bomb to them, it's simply an increase in the radius of the puddle if I'm tracking your question properly.

[SaltMiner]

If it does splash damage, I feel it's very strong (maybe too much?). If it does not, almost no discoveries applys, and i feel it sucks /-:

My reading is because it follows the "throow splash attack rules", it is splash damage. But I don't want the ruling to be a feeling or reading things, but the factual ruling.

[blahpers]

Why on Golarion does something called "effervescent bombs" deal fire damage?

[SaltMiner]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Yes all damage from Effervescent Bombs are Splash Damage, and do not EVER target a Creature, you are simply aiming at specific locations, never a creatures AC, so I guess in effect it's like a Splash Weapon AoE? This isn't really a very well worded ability that's for sure.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't apply Explosive Bomb to them, it's simply an increase in the radius of the puddle if I'm tracking your question properly.

because if it IS splash damage, you do add Int to damage because of

Throw Anything (Ex):

All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.

and healing bombs become so strong, in my opinion: a lvl 2 healing bomb heals up to 4 PC by 5x4 HP (assuming INT=18), and even more character once you get a 4x4 aoe instaed of 2x2.

[Themetricsystem]

Ok so I just did some more research and it would SEEM that they're indeed NOT considered Splash Weapons, simply as a Thrown Weapon so no, you don't ever add your Int bonus to Damage with them. You COULD still use discoveries that affect the radius of the Bombs I believe as it has a special carveout for Discoveries.

Man the end of life PF1 stuff has gotten sloppy with their wording...

The specified damage from Eff Bombs seems to override any affect it hay have from Throw Anything but the Eff Bomb description notes you can use Discoveries on them as though they were normal bombs even though it's not technically a Splash Weapon....

This is solidly "Ask you GM" territory if you ask me, I'd allow you to use the Discoveries but not the Int to Damage portion but this is remarkably under defined.

[SaltMiner]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Ok so I just did some more research and it would SEEM that they're indeed NOT considered Splash Weapons, simply as a Thrown Weapon so no, you don't ever add your Int bonus to Damage with them. You COULD still use discoveries that affect the radius of the Bombs I believe as it has a special carveout for Discoveries.

Man the end of life PF1 stuff has gotten sloppy with their wording...

The specified damage from Eff Bombs seems to override any affect it hay have from Throw Anything but the Eff Bomb description notes you can use Discoveries on them as though they were normal bombs even though it's not technically a Splash Weapon....

This is solidly "Ask you GM" territory if you ask me, I'd allow you to use the Discoveries but not the Int to Damage portion but this is remarkably under defined.

I was affraid of the ask your GM thing^^ I'm pretty sure it s, by the rules, an "all or nothing situation": It s a splash weapon that deal splash damage in a splash radius, and it s good, or it is its own thing and nothing work.

Based on the first two emphasis i made, why would they be only thrown weapon, and not thrown splash weapon? What part of you research lead to that, if you don t mind?

[Razata]

It is a splash weapon. Think more like throwing a Fireball or WoW floor fire than a traditional Bomb.

This allows for some rather useful tactical flexibility.

You can add nasty things like Explosive Bomb for a bigger patch of fire or Grease Bomb for falling down into fire. Strafe Bomb turns this into a wall of fire.

[Joesi]

I don't consider it confusing or poorly worded at all. The only problem is it isn't more specific about the discoveries that it does/doesn't work with, such as Explosive missile.

Overall, it's pretty easy to decide using common sense and reasoning.

Just to be clear, effervescent bombs ARE NOT SPLASH weapons. They are [non-splash] AoE, just like fuse grenades. AoE is not the same thing as splash. Splash has a main target and splash damage. AoE just hits everything with the same damage.

Effervescent bombs are really weak and bad because of this. At high levels they have potential to deal some more damage than normal bombs, but only if the opponents aren't able/willing to get out of the AoE, which means 90% of the time they're significantly worse.

It's a cool concept, but failed in execution. I recommend that a GM works to improve the archetype to be a bit more useful (just don't go overboard!)

Examples of common sense rulings for discoveries:
* Explosive Bomb: Yes, just treat "splash" as AoE (applies to some other discoveries as well). Officially/RAW this would not work, but there's no reason to disallow it, and it would be stupid to disallow it, particularly when it's already weak.
* Any bomb that has an effect on a direct hit: direct hit effect won't work, making these discoveries really bad.
* Healing Bomb: perhaps the one exception to being easy to interpret. Either you allow it to heal the minimum amount for multiple rounds and let that be the Perfumer's 1 good thing and not buff him (which in my opinion is lame, as it would make him a very bland one-tricky pony healer), or else you go the more RAW route and just have it function for the one single bit of instantaneous healing.
* Immolation bomb: simply wouldn't work. Also note that anyone who wants to deal actual decent damage while having bombs that work like a perfumer, this is the discovery to be taking. Very good for efficient bomb damage if you have the time for bombs to burn and/or rule that the DoT stacks.

I'm personally a fan of giving the perfumer a buff to specific discoveries that will work with them, or which would be fitting to MAKE workwith them, such as Smoke Bomb or Stink Bomb, or Poisoned Explosive (normally wouldn't work, but you could have it affect everything in the first round, or have it apply poison to everyone no more than once even if they stay in the cloud), Inferno Bomb, Plague Bomb, Poison Bomb.

I'm also a fan of increasing the damage to 1d6 nonlethal (at least if the player likes it), allowing greater and grand pheremones, as well as buffing greater and grand pheremones.

Without buffs, the perfumer is weaker than the Blazing Torchbearer (the previously weakest/worst alchemist archetype). Speaking of which, Blazing Torchbearer is an archetype I kind of like the style of too. It's a shame they just made it an NPC class instead of something cool (I don't know why there aren't any melee-bomb alchemist archetypes, like that use a blowtorch instead of bombs, or have a bomb that detonates around them in a 5 or 10 foot ring.

[blahpers]

Joesi wrote:

Just to be clear, effervescent bombs ARE NOT SPLASH weapons

Given that bombs themselves are splash weapons and effervescent bombs are stated to work like bombs apart from swapping direct damage for the "puddle of fire" effect, on what do you base this statement?

[avr]

Isn't the splash damage part of the direct damage though? Effervescent bombs create a special effect, they don't do that direct damage.

[Joesi]

blahpers wrote:

Given that bombs themselves are splash weapons and effervescent bombs are stated to work like bombs apart from swapping direct damage for the "puddle of fire" effect, on what do you base this statement?

Because splash weapons always deal direct damage. This does not deal direct damage. It states having an AoE of 5 ft radius without dealing direct damage which makes it a [non-splash] AoE. It also specifically overrides normal bomb mechanics in this way as well: "Each creature within this area takes 1d4 points of fire damage immediately and again each round it remains within or enters the puddle".

avr wrote:

Isn't the splash damage part of the direct damage though? Effervescent bombs create a special effect, they don't do that direct damage.

I think you're replying to blahpers and giving the same argument that I gave? you just worded it poorly, because the perfumer bombs don't have direct damage, and the AoE damage shouldn't be called splash damage either.

It does still make sense to count the AoE damage as splash area for the purposes of bomb discoveries though (even though by strict, unreasonable RAW interpretation it technically wouldn't be allowed), but that's not the same thing as saying that it is splash damage.

[blahpers]

Joesi wrote:

Because splash weapons always deal direct damage.

How does a character deploy stink oil, pox burster, marker dye, or sneezing powder? Do any of these deal direct damage?

[Joesi]

Correction: direct hit effect.

Marker dye is an anomaly, possibly even an oversight, which doesn't have a splash effect, it is merely just thrown as a splash weapon.

[Evan Riggs]

Effervescent bombs

Effervescent bombs otherwise functions as bombs, and discoveries that apply to bombs apply to effervescent bombs.

nothing says you cannot directly target someone.
nothing says it isnt a splash weapon.

it does say Rather than deal direct dmg.

so it is a bomb, it is a thrown splash weapon, it doesnt do direct dmg, no matter what you add to it. it does not do direct dmg.

i see no issue here.

so RAW, its a splash weapon that creates a puddle.