| Kiniticyst |
Question about Shadow Conjuration, specifically these two parts:
"Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them"
And
"Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell."
So if I use it to cast something like Mount I can ride it if I choose to 'believe' by failing my save. But I can't lash it to a cart for it to pull because the rope will fall right through it?
Does this mean creatures summoned using shadow conjuration are effectively incorporeal? I'm looking to use Possession on shadow conjured creatures through things like Draconic Ally but I have no idea if I can even grab a door handle to open it, or if it means I can walk right through doors...
| Pizza Lord |
So if I use it to cast something like Mount I can ride it if I choose to 'believe' by failing my save.
Yes, you can ride it. No, you can't choose to believe. You already know it's an illusion. In the case of shadow illusions, they are actually real, but only one-fifth (20%) real (one-fifth as strong, tough, durable, healthy, etc.) Only in some rare case where you cast an illusion and legitimately have your memory lost or the illusion is significantly altered in such a way or location that you wouldn't recognize your own illusion, would I let it fool you.
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others.
It would be pretty unbelievable for you to suddenly not know you just conjured up a shadow illusion. Again, however, it is the equivalent of a mount spell, it would only be one-fifth as strong (ie. carrying capacity or encumbrance), but it would work for you. In this case, even if you (or anyone else) failed to disbelieve it, it would still only be one-fifth as strong. Only in cases where it directly affects someone who believed it, would it have full power (ie. if the horse kicked or bit someone). Note, however, that certain shadow effects are more 'real' than others, like greater shadow [whatever] or if you are on the Shadow Plane, such effects will generally be 10% stronger and more real. A shadow conjured bridge or plank would only support one-fifth the weight of an actual bridge or plank, whether you believed it was fully real or not.
I know there might be odd or unusual cases, but that's the nature of quasi-real objects. For instance, a shadow conjuration create pit cast at 6th-level would still be 30 feet deep, just like a normal create pit. It would be just as large and just as deep, it would hold just as many creatures inside, etc. and it would still do full falling damage to anyone falling into it (because the falling damage is not actually part of the spell itself), and you would still fall 30 feet (not 6 feet if you disbelieved). A shadow conjured acid pit, on the other hand (baring in mind that acid pit would normally be too high level for shadow conjuration to mimic), would work the same way (including the acid pool cushioning the fall), but the acid would only do one-fifth damage to those disbelieving (full damage to those who don't). The acid would always do only one-fifth damage to exposed objects, because they never fail, even if the owner did. Either way, the owner is still in the pit, still can drown in the acid, etc. Making that a good spell line for such shadowy versions (though, the actual spell would be preferable in most cases).
But I can't lash it to a cart for it to pull because the rope will fall right through it?
A normal illusion would do that. Your illusion is one-fifth 'real'. You could hook a shadow conjured horse to a cart (not sure if a mount can be used for that, since I only see reference to using it as a steed, not a drafthorse). It would only have one-fifth the encumbrance or pulling/carrying capacity of a real horse.
Does this mean creatures summoned using shadow conjuration are effectively incorporeal?
No, unless they are a quasi-real version of an incorporeal creature, object, or effect.
I'm looking to use Possession on shadow conjured creatures through things like Draconic Ally but I have no idea if I can even grab a door handle to open it, or if it means I can walk right through doors...
Yes, the possessed form would just be one-fifth as strong, durable, or healthy as a 'real' version. It wouldn't pass through a solid object four-fifths of the time.
A shadow conjured dagger would still cut a rope, it would only do 20% damage if you tried sundering it (your GM can determine whether normal use is affected, ie. it might take 4 to 5 times as long to saw through the rope), it wouldn't fail to hit or pass through 4 out of 5 times.
| Kiniticyst |
a shadow conjuration create pit cast at 6th-level would still be 30 feet deep, just like a normal create pit. It would be just as large and just as deep, it would hold just as many creatures inside, etc. and it would still do full falling damage to anyone falling into it (because the falling damage is not actually part of the spell itself), and you would still fall 30...
So what is the initial will save for in this case? If Create Pit simply creates a pit and forces creatures to reflex or fall in.. If we don't take the 80% off the dimensions, does it mean they only have a 20% chance of needing to make the reflex save to fall in?
Yes, the possessed form would just be one-fifth as strong, durable, or healthy as a 'real' version.
The only part of the spell that mentions strength is this:
"Shadow conjurations are only one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength. Any creature that interacts with the spell can make a Will save to recognize its true nature."
I think it's clear that that is supposed to be separate from how the summoned creatures work, as it goes on to define the differences later in the spell:
"A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it’s recognized as shadowy). It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses. Against a creature that recognizes it as a shadow creature, however, the shadow creature’s damage is one-fifth (20%) normal, and all special abilities that do not deal lethal damage are only 20% likely to work. (Roll for each use and each affected character separately.) Furthermore, the shadow creature’s AC bonuses are just one-fifth as large."
It takes about their hit-points, damage and AC but doesn't mention Strength. Should i apply the 20% strength to their stats before calculating that they do 20% less damage or after? Many of the creatures would have a strength score of 1 if I ruled that they were 1/5th as strong..
| Kiniticyst |
A cart doesn’t get to save against being strapped to a horse, so it should work ok.
The general rule here is:
"Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate.
Unfortunately though, as I quoted, Shadow Conjuration explicitly states "Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell."
| Pizza Lord |
Pizza Lord wrote:So what is the initial will save for in this case? If Create Pit simply creates a pit and forces creatures to reflex or fall in.. If we don't take the 80% off the dimensions, does it mean they only have a 20% chance of needing to make the reflex save to fall in?
a shadow conjuration create pit cast at 6th-level would still be 30 feet deep, just like a normal create pit. It would be just as large and just as deep, it would hold just as many creatures inside, etc. and it would still do full falling damage to anyone falling into it (because the falling damage is not actually part of the spell itself), and you would still fall 30...
I don't know what you mean by 'initial Will save'. Are you referring to the Will save to disbelieve (if interacted with)? That's not automatic. The only occurs if an illusion is interacted with meaningfully (meaning, just looking or hearing it isn't enough) or if someone is actively trying to disbelieve it.
If you're confused or troubled by a quasi-real shadow create pit, it's because that's why I used it as an example to make you think. I specifically told you that there can be confusing and difficult to adjudicate instances, and then pointed out the most obvious one. The reason you have trouble with it isn't because it's quasi-real... but because the sheer fact that what's being created is something that isn't there... ie. you aren't technically creating something, you're making an area of nothing (a hole, which is nothing).
It can get even more confusing, for instance, create pit doesn't allow SR, because it's a hole... that you fall into. Shadow conjuration specifically adds SR to the spell. A creature with SR will still fall into the pit and will still take falling damage (because that is not part of the spell's effect or damage directly). The SR would apply to direct damage from similar spells, like the acid pit, but the SR creature technically wouldn't take any damage from the acid at the bottom but could still drown, just like a disbelieving creature could (though the disbelieving creature would take 1/5th damage). Similarly, you can toss a sword into the shadow conjured pit and it's going to fall in, even if it automatically doesn't believe the pit is fully real.
This is just one of those times where a particular spell works as well as a fully 'real' version (though, bare in mind that you're using a 4th-level spell for a 2nd-level effect, so there's that). The SR creature won't end up standing in mid-air over the pit. Similarly, the sloped edge effect of the create pit works just as well in either version (ie. a creature with SR standing on the edge can fall in just as easily; this is pretty much an inherent fact of the pit's form, not an effect). That's the inherent contradiction of there being an illusory 'nothing'. The fact that the edges or borders of the pit are quasi-real does not effect the fact that it's a pit, just like a quasi-real cup will still hold water, it might be easier to break, but nobody is going to try and break the edges of a create pit, so it's moot.
Pizza Lord wrote:
Yes, the possessed form would just be one-fifth as strong, durable, or healthy as a 'real' version.
The only part of the spell that mentions strength is this: ...
I think it's clear that that is supposed to be separate from how the summoned creatures work, as it goes on to define the differences later in the spell:
I don't believe there's intended to be any separation. It specifically says that the conjurations are 1/5th as strong. It then goes into telling you how to apply those to creatures and their statistics. A shadow conjured horse is 1/5th as strong as a real horse (against those that disbelieve it). A shadow conjured door is 1/5th as durable.
In almost all cases, any reduction in actual or apparent Strength is handled by the fact that it only does 20% damage (which is the typical form of interaction between creatures), so don't bother redoing Strength, just take associated things into account when they apply to such things, ie. exerting force, encumbrance, supporting weight, etc.. If a horse is trying to bull rush, trample, or move a person (that believes in it), it affects them at full apparent Strength (however you want to define that working, be it the person giving up because they assume the horse is stronger than it really is or not). Against a door, the horse would only deal 1/5th damage or be able to exert 1/5th the force.
Again, this is all just to say that not everything makes perfect sense or works on every level. A shadow conjuration elephant isn't 1/5th the size of a normal elephant, nor does it weigh less, it's just less 'real'. Just like a shadow conjured pit isn't 1/5th the depth of a normal pit or a shadow conjured fireball affects 1/5th of a normal fireball's area. The shadow conjured elephant still weighs as much as a 'real' elephant and would affect a pressure plate or set of scales just like a real one, which means that using it in such a manner could be as effective as a real elephant (ie. if it fell on you, which has no bearing on its strength). A shadow conjured amazing lock would still be just as hard to pick for someone who believed it (they would get save when they attempted it), but it would only be 1/5th as hard to smash (regardless of belief).
| Kiniticyst |
Shadow stuff
I think I understand it more now and I agree with pretty much all of your interpretations, now I'm just left at the final hurdle:
If, as you said, the caster always automatically passes their save and thus disbelieves their own spell, they treat the effects as 1/5th as strong. Does that mean if I cast possession on my Shadow Conjured Creature, do I only get control of a creature at 1/5th damage, 1/5th AC and 1/5th chance for it's abilities to work regardless of whether my targets succeed or fails their will save against my new form?
Do I always control the Shadow Conjured Creature at 1/5th it's strength? Like I said initially, many of the things I could summon to possess would then have an effective strength score of 1, I would be permanently encumbered.
| Pizza Lord |
Does that mean if I cast possession on my Shadow Conjured Creature, do I only get control of a creature at 1/5th damage, 1/5th AC and 1/5th chance for it's abilities to work regardless of whether my targets succeed or fails their will save against my new form?
Your form would have the constant modifiers: the hit points, AC bonus, etc. that always apply to quasi real forms. Against other creatures, you would affect them just like a normal creature unless they disbelieve, then they take 20% damage. Against doors or objects you would only do 1/5th regardless (like if you tried to sunder someone's sword, even if they believed your form was fully real).