Catch off Guard question

[Fettclub]

Hey everyone. Not long ago, I reached out on a special build, and someone responded with the idea of using an improvised weapon via the catch off guard feat, then the shikigami feat chain to scale its damage.

In discussing this with others in the group, it was suggested that this concept could be used with a Wizard's Hand of the Apprentice ability or a Cleric's Hand of the Acolyte ability. I've also heard that throw anything would be the preferred feat to use, but considering they are supernatural abilities, it was argued that catch off guard would work better, considering the flat footed bonus.

Reading the different abilities, I can see why some justified this, but it seems almost too good to be true. Has anyone else considered this? Is it possible or is it too good to be true as I suspected?

[Zautos']

I have no idea what you are asking about. I can't tell you what is best for you i don't know what you want to do.

[MrCharisma]

I'm not quite sure they're compatible, but I'm not quite sure they're not either.

This is likely a GM call since it's such a corner case.

(The OP is referencing the "shikigami style" feat chain, and the "Hand of the Apprentice" ability that you get for being a Generalist Wizard or a Cleric with the Magic Domain)

[Fettclub]

Ok, so let me clarify.

Catch off Guard or Throw anything allow you to attack with an improvised weapon without penalty.

Shikigami Style increases the damage of a melee improvised weapon by one step. The other feats, Shikigami Mimicry and Shikigami Manipulation will increase the damage further, so a 1d6 improvised weapon would become a 4d6 improvised weapon.

The Cleric and Wizard abilities, essentially, allow you to magically throw a melee weapon at an enemy from a range of 30 ft.

What I'm trying to determine is if someone played one of these classes, gained that Hand of the Acolyte/Apprentice ability, and the feats listed above, could they essentially magically throw an improvised weapon for the scaled damage?

Where I'm seeing the loophole is that while the feats only apply to melee weapons, they don't specify they only apply to melee attacks.

[Lucy_Valentine]

*scratches her head*
It seems to me that Hand of the Apprentice requires you to have a melee weapon in hand, but then treats it as a thrown attack. I personally would rule this works with an improvised weapon, but that since it's a thrown attack Catch Off-Guard doesn't help. But it seems like Throw Anything would still negate the attack penalty (if we assume that HotA doesn't), and Shikigami style should still kick in (because it's still an improvised weapon).

Mind you, I'm not sure why you'd want HotA rather than just throwing something? Is it for the slightly increased range?

[Fettclub]

My wife plays a cleric in the big campaign our groups play. Hand of the Acolyte/Apprentice is a great ability at lower levels, but it loses it's luster as your spell casting gets stronger.

Still, being able to effectively throw an improvised weapon at an enemy for 4d6 damage or better in the lower levels is impressive. At least if it works.

The fundamental difference though is that Hand of the Acolyte/Apprentice are kind of middle ground. While your character is throwing the weapon, improvised or standard, it's a supernatural ability, so they are not physically throwing the items, more like willing them to fly out of their hands and attack something.

[Meirril]

While it sounds good, it also means your caster is sinking feats into melee abilities they won't normally use. It isn't deadly to a caster, but you aren't doing yourself any favors.

[Fettclub]

True, 4 feats is a heavy tax, but my wife's level 15 cleric has struggled to find suitable feats for her character. She mainly serves as a healer/buffer.

I agree, it's not something someone should sink all their efforts into, but it could be a cool route to go if they want to try something different. The argument, as stated already, wasn't that someone wanted to do it, but rather whether it was possible.