Your on the ice. There is a 50Ft diameter of weak ice, below which is deathly cold. You have no magic or abilities strong enough to surpass the cold effects of the water. Should you fall into the water you will die of cold.
At the middle of the ice (which you have been warned REPEATEDLY not to cross) the ice breaks! "But I make a Reflex Save!!" cries the player.
Given the size of the area in question and no way that the player could reasonably avoid the effect do they get a Ref Save?
I seem to recall there was a rule which read if it were an unavoidable effect the answer is no, but I'm seeing a lot of players on the various social media forums crying out YES! they still get the save.
If the rules specify that the character gets a saving throw, the character gets a saving throw. That's pretty much it. If a rogue with evasion is standing in the middle of a featureless plane and a wizard enlarged fireballs with the rogue (roughly) in the center, they still get a Reflex save, and if the rogue succeeds the rogue still takes no damage. The in-universe explanation for how this works is left as an exercise for the reader players. There are very, very few situations in which a called-for Reflex save is skipped--even unconscious, helpless characters get to make Reflex saves, though they are heavily penalized.
On the trap issue, each trap states what sort of roll is used to determine whether/how the trap affects the victim. Some traps use attack rolls, some use saving throws, and some use both or neither. Follow the published rules for the trap in question.
Edit: In the case of weak ice, I don't know of any universal mechanics for handling the situation, but I would expect a saving throw to avoid falling into the water, or perhaps an Acrobatics check to leap or skip to safety if this involves moving a significant amount (say, 25 feet for being in the center of a 50' area of breaking ice).
Freezing water generally doesn't cause instantaneous death by cold, either, in Pathfinder or in real life. It'd likely cause ongoing cold (possibly nonlethal) damage while exposed to the water and afterward until the character is sufficiently warmed. Even magical superfreezing water ought to simply do more cold damage.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Reflex
States....
Reflex:
These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.
Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Improved Evasion (Ex)
Prerequisite: (Rogue) Advanced talents
Benefit: This works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
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One of the things that I've noticed in all of these descriptions is a lack of any suggestion that the character actually MOVES from their current position. In short they are not running at full movement to escape the area of effect, etc. So whatever split second action they may take (such as dropping prone) is not assuming they have moved.
Thus stating "I dive for the edge of the pit, etc" is NOT covered under RAW.
Or am I reading this wrong?
I agree with you about the rules for freezing water, it was used as an example of an unavoidable situation if triggered, as an alternative I could have used a 100ft drop into lava, etc etc.
#2) I must 100% disagree with you in your statement of "even unconscious, helpless characters get to make Reflex saves" as the RAW rules for Ref Saves (which I've quoted above) specifically address this issue and have ruled that they do NOT get a save.
3) The rogue would take no damage IF they are at least 2nd level AND have not opted for an archetype (or other effect) which required they trade away their Evasion skill. Otherwise they would still be taking 1/2 damage from such an AOE effect spell regardless. This is admittedly splitting hairs here, however I want to make certain we are looking at the same issues and not doing too far down separate tangents.
No helpless doesn't get evasion it still gets a save.
@Talonhawke
I just reread that part of the text myself. You are correct, thank you for pointing out the difference.
No problem also here are the rules for Thin Ice
Secondary question: if a character is helpless or unconscious would not then effects which trigger a reflex save, baring in mind this is an active reaction, not be allowed? Should this not fall under the category of an unavoidable situation? "These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations." If you are unconscious or otherwise helpless you can not react to anything which is why a coup de grace works on such characters.
Nope, call it luck, muscle memory, divine providence, or whatever you want but sometimes that tied up unconscious guy just manages to avoid the brunt of the effect.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/#TOC-Helpless
Describes helpless as the following:
Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
If you're going to make it an unavoidable situation, you should probably tell that to players directly.
The expectation is that most things like this would allow some sort of save to avoid the damage, or in this case a reflex save to jump to safety.
As mentioned, if a rogue with evasion can completely avoid damage in a featureless plane from a fireball which should completely envelope them in all directions and not enough movement to outrun the area of the fireball, they still take no damage on a successful save.
Sorry, but "tied up" is the same as bound. Please see above.
If you're going to make it an unavoidable situation, you should probably tell that to players directly.
I completely agree with that statement. No contest there what so ever.
The real issue here is the perception that a Reflex save can be used in any situation and to avoid any effect, and I'm looking for hard proof under RAW that is in indeed the case. Or at least that it was the intention of the developers when the game was created that it be interpreted that way.
So far, every table I've ever played at has interpreted the rules this way, but I've yet to see hard proof that this is the case.
Thus my question: under RAW how far can Ref Save (and to a lesser degree Evasion / Imp Evasion) be pushed?
No reflex only applies when called for, not anytime. You can't reflex away from an incoming attack, and you can't use it to catch your self if you fall while climbing. Saves are not a player called for defense it's an avoidance of an incoming stimuli.
Saves are not a player called for defense it's an avoidance of an incoming stimuli.
Fair enough.
So then what is your take on the question of if a save is allowed when defenseless or the effect / attack is "unavoidable"? Such as the example above about being tied up / bound?
Like I said the rules allow it, and I'm okay with that. As odd as it seems even tied up you might be able to flop/ move in such away to reduce some of the blast it might not be easy to do (the -5 dex alone is a big one, but the loss of most defensive abilities like evasion is rough) but maybe you got flat during the fireball, you managed to lift a shoulder just enough to roll away from instead of into the pit, even unconscious doesn't mean unmoving if you think so drag a feather across the face of someone.
There is an FAQ to the CRB that is relevant to part of this:
Reflex Saves: If I’m paralyzed, held, dying, or otherwise completely immobilized or insensate, can I still attempt a Reflex save?
Yes, you can still attempt a Reflex save, but since your Dexterity is set to 0, you’ll have to replace your Dexterity bonus with a –5 penalty, so you’re not likely to succeed. If you do succeed, it might be due to the power of your cloak of resistance, a good angle for cover, or even luck. Either way, follow the rules of the spell for a successful Reflex save, even if this would change your space, like create pit. However, you lose evasion in these circumstances. If you are under the influence of a rare effect that causes you to be immobilized or insensate and allows ongoing Reflex saves to escape the effect, as an exception to the rule, you can use your full Dexterity bonus (instead of a –5 penalty) for the purpose of attempting those ongoing saves only, since your full Dexterity is at work within the confines of the spell, trying to break free.
The expectation is that most things like this would allow some sort of save to avoid the damage, or in this case a reflex save to jump to safety.
...I'm sorry, but your jump to safety explanation is a move action, or at least an acrobatics skill check. Neither of which are covered under a Ref Save per RAW. If you can site where that is stated to the contrary I would truly appreciate seeing it. (This is the very argument we are having at our gaming table and I'd love to drive a nail in its coffin and put it to bed once and for all.)
As mentioned, if a rogue with evasion can completely avoid damage in a featureless plane from a fireball which should completely envelope them in all directions and not enough movement to outrun the area of the fireball, they still take no damage on a successful save.
...."and not enough movement to outrun the area of the fireball" would still imply they are getting some sort of a free movement action, which is NOT covered under RAW neither for Ref Saves nor for either tiers of the Evasion ability.
Sorry I know this is nit-picky and probably sounds like I'm just trying to be a jerk here, but I'm honestly looking for a solid answer on how far this can be pushed without having to start ad lib house ruling it (such as allowing for free acrobatic skill checks, and free movement actions which seem to be the norm).
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...."and not enough movement to outrun the area of the fireball" would still imply they are getting some sort of a free movement action, which is NOT covered under RAW neither for Ref Saves nor for either tiers of the Evasion ability.
Sorry I know this is nit-picky and probably sounds like I'm just trying to be a jerk here, but I'm honestly looking for a solid answer on how far this can be pushed without having to start ad lib house ruling it (such as allowing for free acrobatic skill checks, and free movement actions which seem to be the norm).
Okay so here might be your confusion, unless a reflex save says it moves you x feet you don't move. What we mean by not enough movement is that it doesn't matter if you can't escape the radius of the fireball you can still evade it.
You don't move to the edge of the fireball, or other effect unless you told you do (such as a wall spell).
Like I said the rules allow it, and I'm okay with that. As odd as it seems even tied up you might be able to flop/ move in such away to reduce some of the blast it might not be easy to do (the -5 dex alone is a big one, but the loss of most defensive abilities like evasion is rough) but maybe you got flat during the fireball, you managed to lift a shoulder just enough to roll away from instead of into the pit, even unconscious doesn't mean unmoving if you think so drag a feather across the face of someone.
I'm sorry sir but I've not seen where RAW supports this, regardless of how many gaming tables may accept this answer without question. RAW (as quoted above) specifically states the REF Save is the ability to dodge an effect. Dodge is an active defense and one which would work against attacks that you are aware of. I THINK there is some ruling about attacks you are not aware and how to defend (or not) against them but I cant find it atm.
Okay so here might be your confusion, unless a reflex save says it moves you x feet you don't move. What we mean by not enough movement is that it doesn't matter if you can't escape the radius of the fireball you can still evade it.
You don't move to the edge of the fireball, or other effect unless you told you do (such as a wall spell).
Oh I'm not confused Talonhawke, and the point you are making is in fact at the core of what I'm suggesting too. Based on the description of the Ref Save and the Evasion tiers your have not moved at all, nor taken another action such as an acrobatics skill check.
Based on the wording of the Ref Save it is a Dodge effect. Meaning it is an active defense which requires you to be aware of it. Dodge effects are not allowed when grappled or held.
If there is a ruling which contradicts any of the above please share it with me.
Dodge effects in that regard refer to dodge bonuses a specific type of bonus not any form of dodging. While dodging is active reflex saves are reactive that's the difference otherwise traps with reflex half/negates wouldn't actually allow you to make a save at all.
And as Java Man just quoted the game developers have clarified that you can make a reflex while helpless you can't get much more explicit than that.
@Talonhawke
I actually missed JavaMan's post. Thank you for drawing it to my attention.
Can anyone post a link to that FAQ? Thank you for the help with this.
The expectation is that most things like this would allow some sort of save to avoid the damage, or in this case a reflex save to jump to safety....I'm sorry, but your jump to safety explanation is a move action, or at least an acrobatics skill check. Neither of which are covered under a Ref Save per RAW. If you can site where that is stated to the contrary I would truly appreciate seeing it. (This is the very argument we are having at our gaming table and I'd love to drive a nail in its coffin and put it to bed once and for all.)
As mentioned, if a rogue with evasion can completely avoid damage in a featureless plane from a fireball which should completely envelope them in all directions and not enough movement to outrun the area of the fireball, they still take no damage on a successful save....."and not enough movement to outrun the area of the fireball" would still imply they are getting some sort of a free movement action, which is NOT covered under RAW neither for Ref Saves nor for either tiers of the Evasion ability.
Sorry I know this is nit-picky and probably sounds like I'm just trying to be a jerk here, but I'm honestly looking for a solid answer on how far this can be pushed without having to start ad lib house ruling it (such as allowing for free acrobatic skill checks, and free movement actions which seem to be the norm).
Sorry you grossly misunderstood the point of my statement. It wasn't to say you get free movement, you don't. The point was, if you had a fireball that was somehow 1000ft in diameter, and had a merflok rogue with evasion and only 5ft of movement, that they manage on a successful save to completely avoid the fireball in the entirely featureless plane despite having nothing to hide behind and no ability to move outside its range.
I wasn't trying to say you move, I was saying that despite not moving or having enough movement to avoid the effect, you somehow avoid the effect. Although, in the case of magical pits being cast in your square you do get moved (without spending any movement) if you make the reflex save successfully.
Edit: Talonhawke's previous post on this topic is exactly what I was referring to.
The main issue as I see it here is:
1) You're creating an effect that is otherwise not listed as an explicit example in any of the mainline sources (although I imagine at least one adventure path someplace has the same or a very similar scenario). Which leads to the problem of...
2) You're not sure what mechanics to run it on. If Paizo wrote this "hazard" and had that you got a reflex save to avoid the damage, you would definitely agree that you would get the save, would you not?
I can provide you with this example of a cave in hazard:
Cave-In / Collapse CR 8
XP 4,800
Cave-ins and collapsing tunnels are extremely dangerous. Not only do dungeon explorers face the danger of being crushed by tons of falling rock, but even if they survive they might be buried beneath a pile of rubble or cut off from the only known exit. A cave-in buries anyone in the middle of the collapsing area, and then sliding debris damages anyone in the periphery of the collapse. A typical corridor subject to a cave-in might have a bury zone with a 15-foot radius and a 10-foot-wide slide zone extending beyond the bury zone.
A weakened ceiling can be spotted with a DC 20 Knowledge (engineering) or DC 20 Craft (stonemasonry) check. Remember that Craft checks can be made untrained as Intelligence checks. A dwarf can make such a check if he simply passes within 10 feet of a weakened ceiling.
A weakened ceiling might collapse when subjected to a major impact or concussion. A character can cause a cave-in by destroying half the pillars holding up the ceiling.
Characters in the bury zone of a cave-in take 8d6 points of damage, or half that amount if they make a DC 15 Reflex save. They are subsequently buried. Characters in the slide zone take 3d6 points of damage, or no damage at all if they make a DC 15 Reflex save. Characters in the slide zone who fail their saves are buried.
Characters take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while buried. If such a character falls unconscious, he must make a DC 15 Constitution check each minute. If it fails, he takes 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute until freed or dead.
Characters who aren’t buried can dig out their friends. In 1 minute, using only her hands, a character can clear rocks and debris equal to five times her heavy load limit. The amount of loose stone that fills a 5-foot-by-5-foot area weighs 1 ton (2,000 pounds). Armed with an appropriate tool, such as a pick, crowbar, or shovel, a digger can clear loose stone twice as quickly as by hand. A buried character can attempt to free himself with a DC 25 Strength check.
One would think this would be just as unavoidable as your situation, but it still allows a reflex save to avoid the damage. And a rogue with evasion would on a successful save take no damage and end up not in the buried area (assuming they weren't in the middle. Whether they're on top of the rock pile or outside the edge isn't specified, but somehow they're out of the area (assuming they weren't in the middle).
Characters in the middle do get outright screwed and buried. However, this also gave skill checks to players to know about the hazard, which from a meta perspective probably shouldn't include an understanding of the mechanics of being unavoidably buried.
No problem also here are the rules for Thin Ice
Nice find for the specific case! Note that there's no Reflex save, but there are ample chances for the character to notice their peril as well as means to attempt to extricate oneself from said peril.
For the general case, Lazlo.Arcadia, it's pretty much impossible to discuss the "unavoidable" situation as a class in any meaningful fashion. Each hazard or situation has rules that cover it that don't necessarily apply to other hazards or situations.
If you're looking for a Chunky Salsa Rule, Pathfinder doesn't really have one, at least not in the text. As noted above, even unconscious characters get saving throws and can be missed by non-coup-de-grace attack rolls.
Even better, I just found your hazard.
A frozen lake or river can prove a serious danger if characters misjudge the thickness of the ice. With a successful DC 20 Survival check, a character can accurately gauge the amount of weight a given sheet of ice can support. Table 4–7: Thin Ice lists the maximum size creature or object that can be supported by ice. (A Fine creature or object can be supported by any thickness of ice.) When a creature steps onto ice that is one category thinner than what could normally support its weight, the ice begins to creak and crack ominously—a warning that a creature can notice with a successful DC 10 Perception check. At the end of a round, if an area of ice is unable to support its load, it gives way on a result of 10 or less on a d20 roll. This roll takes a cumulative –4 penalty for each size category by which the creature exceeds the maximum size the ice can support. A creature that is prone is treated as one size category smaller than its actual size for the purpose of determining whether the ice can support it. Ice within 5 feet of a fresh break is fragile, and it is treated as one category thinner for the purpose of determining the maximum size creature it can support.
Table 4–7: Thin Ice
Ice Thickness Maximum Size Break DC
Under 1 inch Diminutive 5
1–2 inches Tiny 15
2–4 inches Small 20
4–6 inches Medium 25
6–12 inches Large 30
1–2 feet Huge 35
2–4 feet Gargantuan 40
Over 4 feet Colossal 50
When ice gives way, a hole of a size equal to the creature’s space opens in the ice. A creature falling into the near-freezing water beneath the ice is treated as if it were in an area of extreme cold, and on the round it plunges into the water, it must also succeed at a DC 15 Swim check or be submerged beneath the water and trapped beneath the ice, unable to surface. A creature trapped beneath the ice can attempt to break through with a Strength check (the break DC depends on the ice’s thickness, as indicated on Table 4–7), or it can attempt to swim to an opening in the ice (although unless the creature is able to see in the darkness beneath the ice, it might have trouble finding its way to where an opening is). A submerged creature that is adjacent to the edge of the break in the ice can attempt a DC 20 Climb check to pull itself out, although keep in mind that ice adjacent to a break is fragile and could shatter in turn.
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I knew you guys would help me to get to the bottom of this. Your assistance has been far more helpful than you know! Thank you.
If you're going to make it an unavoidable situation, you should probably tell that to players directly.
I completely agree with that statement. No contest there what so ever.
The real issue here is the perception that a Reflex save can be used in any situation and to avoid any effect, and I'm looking for hard proof under RAW that is in indeed the case. Or at least that it was the intention of the developers when the game was created that it be interpreted that way.
So far, every table I've ever played at has interpreted the rules this way, but I've yet to see hard proof that this is the case.
Thus my question: under RAW how far can Ref Save (and to a lesser degree Evasion / Imp Evasion) be pushed?
The rules for thin ice do not allow for a saving throw. If the ice gives, the character goes in the water and starts making swim checks.