Guys, we're doing things backwards and we need a little help...
My players have a party we converted to PF and we're really fond of them, they would love to use them for an AP. I love PF's APs but I'm really not sure which one would be the best, thematically speaking, for such a diverse group.
The party includes:
1) a genius, polymath tinkerer alchemist from Alkenstar
2) a very spiritual, possibly Sangpotshi-following wyvaran monk from the Shattered Range in Garund (Nex-Geb-Mwangi Expanse)
3) an exile snowcaster elf magus/witch interested only in accumulating more power and damn the consequences
4) a Garundi catfolk barbarian looking for glorious battle and enough experience to become the next chieftain of his tribe after his father was killed
5) a Tian-Min trickster unsworn shaman/rogue with a fire elemental spirit wolf (her mercenary brother killed 4)'s father)
So, they come from all over the map - Garund, Tian Xia, Crown of the World. I think I remember the party for Serpent's Skull all boarded a ship travelling from North to South and touching down in a lot of ports in the whole Inner Sea, but am not sure about how fitting these characters would be for that AP. And I don't remember all of them very well, so I couldn't say which would be the best for such a disparate group of misfits. Any suggestions?
The main themes for this party are: lost knowledge and technology, power at all costs, nature, and defeating old patrons. I know, no real consistency... hence my current problem and request for help.
Thank you guys.
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The main themes for this party are: lost knowledge and technology, power at all costs, nature, and defeating old patrons. I know, no real consistency... hence my current problem and request for help.
Thank you guys.
Mummy's Mask would seem to fit your bill.
Legacy of Fire would also work, but you mentioned converting to Pathfinder and Legacy of Fire is still 3.5.
The main themes for this party are: lost knowledge and technology, power at all costs, nature, and defeating old patrons. I know, no real consistency... hence my current problem and request for help.
Thank you guys.
Mummy's Mask would seem to fit your bill.
Legacy of Fire would also work, but you mentioned converting to Pathfinder and Legacy of Fire is still 3.5.
Wow, cool!
Okay, Legacy being 3.5 isn't even remotely a problem, I can convert it if it's a good match for this party. From what I read Katapesh is a true melting pot of cultures, so it might work - there are Tian, Keleshites, Garundi, Vudrani... the only guy I'd wonder how got there would be the snowcaster magus witch. Maybe his patron is maneuvering him. The shaman could be looking for her brother anywhere in Garund.
The alchemist... maybe she's interested in the process of crafting an alum (or maybe she needs pesh for an elixir!).
And the wyvaran could have easily been employed by Katapeshi criminals, or gnolls, or other baddies he'll want to turn against now (that's one of his themes)... maybe one of the Templars, I dunno.
Mummy's Mask sounds super cool, but I honestly know very little about it. By reading the player's guide the first ideas for characters that spring to mind would be a sphinx-friendly Pahmet dwarf, an Osiriani undead-hunting cleric of Pharasma, a Living Monolith, and of course the classic pulp archaeologist like Indiana Jones and Evelyn Carnahan (who could also be a sorcerer descended from the pharaohs btw).
It still looks interesting for our party, at least because of all the ancient knowledge and magic to discover. The snowcaster might be looking for power here, although we were thinking something more infernal/fiendish. I don't know what the shaman would be doing. The catfolk, well, just give him undead to fight. The wyvaran... I don't know. I don't see him as a Pharasmin, and I don't know if there are baddies here he could conceivably have been employed by in the past and would now be trying to eliminate as a means of atonement.
More help, please?
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I usually reverse this. The party needs to be given a broad description of each AP under consideration and then each player comes up with why their character is involved in the AP with the help of the player's guide. Character integration is a player duty, not a DMs. Find the AP the party is interested in playing as a group and then let them tailor the backstories individually, with DM help if necessary.
As an example, the Alchemist might love Iron Gods, but if the other players are turned way off by the magic/technology mix, it won't be a fun AP for them.
While the already mentioned APs may fit the diversity, you still have to make sure the theme of those are interesting to the players. The DM will also benefit from knowing the broad course of the entire AP as well. The group I had at the time loved the intro to Serpent's Skull, but things fell apart when they got to the city and it turned into a timed competition.
EDIT: Oh, when you narrow it down to one or three, read the product pages and the sub forums of each to get a better idea on the good and bad of any given AP.
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Right off the bat, I'd suggest STRANGE AEONS, which is really a great AP for a hyper-diverse party, as it (storyline wise) encourages a wide range of characters.
The problem is that if your characters want to explore these backgrounds, they really don't get a chance in the AP, and won't even know their own backgrounds at start.
SKULL AND SHACKLES might be a good fit as well, as pirates are a diverse lot, being the scum of the earth and all.
CARRION CROWN is third AP which mechanically encourages a polyglot party. And in fact... I'd probably settle there. Yup, CARRION CROWN it should be.
I usually reverse this. The party needs to be given a broad description of each AP under consideration and then each player comes up with why their character is involved in the AP with the help of the player's guide. Character integration is a player duty, not a DMs. Find the AP the party is interested in playing as a group and then let them tailor the backstories individually, with DM help if necessary.
As an example, the Alchemist might love Iron Gods, but if the other players are turned way off by the magic/technology mix, it won't be a fun AP for them.
While the already mentioned APs may fit the diversity, you still have to make sure the theme of those are interesting to the players. The DM will also benefit from knowing the broad course of the entire AP as well. The group I had at the time loved the intro to Serpent's Skull, but things fell apart when they got to the city and it turned into a timed competition.
EDIT: Oh, when you narrow it down to one or three, read the product pages and the sub forums of each to get a better idea on the good and bad of any given AP.
I usually reverse this *myself*. But we have this party of pcs that we're really fond of and we have this bunch of APs that we're really fond of and we thought to try to marry the two. Hence this thread: what AP might be thematically fitting for this group?
Right off the bat, I'd suggest STRANGE AEONS, which is really a great AP for a hyper-diverse party, as it (storyline wise) encourages a wide range of characters.
The problem is that if your characters want to explore these backgrounds, they really don't get a chance in the AP, and won't even know their own backgrounds at start.
SKULL AND SHACKLES might be a good fit as well, as pirates are a diverse lot, being the scum of the earth and all.
CARRION CROWN is third AP which mechanically encourages a polyglot party. And in fact... I'd probably settle there. Yup, CARRION CROWN it should be.
You know, I think Carrion Crown would be almost perfect, very classic in its conflict against terrible evil, with a perfect intro... great idea, I need to read more of it, might work very well.
I'm also curious about Shattered Star and Return of the Runelords - fighting ancient evils coming back to some of the most iconic regions of the Inner Sea would be nice I think.
I agree with your hesitations regarding the other APs: Strange Aeons starts off with the characters not even knowing who they are and is very Lovecraftian, too much for this kind of party imho. Skull & Shackles requires indeed pirates, and 5 out of 5 pcs would rather go do something else. I'd love to run these bad boys - just not for this party.
Thank you!
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Right off the bat, I'd suggest STRANGE AEONS, which is really a great AP for a hyper-diverse party, as it (storyline wise) encourages a wide range of characters.
The problem is that if your characters want to explore these backgrounds, they really don't get a chance in the AP, and won't even know their own backgrounds at start.
SKULL AND SHACKLES might be a good fit as well, as pirates are a diverse lot, being the scum of the earth and all.
CARRION CROWN is third AP which mechanically encourages a polyglot party. And in fact... I'd probably settle there. Yup, CARRION CROWN it should be.
You know, I think Carrion Crown would be almost perfect, very classic in its conflict against terrible evil, with a perfect intro... great idea, I need to read more of it, might work very well.
I'm also curious about Shattered Star and Return of the Runelords - fighting ancient evils coming back to some of the most iconic regions of the Inner Sea would be nice I think.
I agree with your hesitations regarding the other APs: Strange Aeons starts off with the characters not even knowing who they are and is very Lovecraftian, too much for this kind of party imho. Skull & Shackles requires indeed pirates, and 5 out of 5 pcs would rather go do something else. I'd love to run these bad boys - just not for this party.
Thank you!
the reason i'd skip Rise and Shattered is that they happen geographically pretty far from where your PCs want to be from; Rise starts out in a 2 bit town and your PCs really should have some connection to it - Shattered is based on a deep exploration of Varisia, and your party doesn't really seem like they would be a good fit for that.
CARRION CROWN however, starts off with bringing a party of however much diversity you want, and has some of the other themes you were looking for, like lost power, and old patrons.
Look at the forum threads for tips - there's a problem with tying in the BBEG from book 6 into the published material if you are just starting from book 1. I've never played it, but lots of people really like volumes 2 and 4, with 4 getting some really high praise.
Have fun!
Right off the bat, I'd suggest STRANGE AEONS, which is really a great AP for a hyper-diverse party, as it (storyline wise) encourages a wide range of characters.
The problem is that if your characters want to explore these backgrounds, they really don't get a chance in the AP, and won't even know their own backgrounds at start.
SKULL AND SHACKLES might be a good fit as well, as pirates are a diverse lot, being the scum of the earth and all.
CARRION CROWN is third AP which mechanically encourages a polyglot party. And in fact... I'd probably settle there. Yup, CARRION CROWN it should be.
You know, I think Carrion Crown would be almost perfect, very classic in its conflict against terrible evil, with a perfect intro... great idea, I need to read more of it, might work very well.
I'm also curious about Shattered Star and Return of the Runelords - fighting ancient evils coming back to some of the most iconic regions of the Inner Sea would be nice I think.
I agree with your hesitations regarding the other APs: Strange Aeons starts off with the characters not even knowing who they are and is very Lovecraftian, too much for this kind of party imho. Skull & Shackles requires indeed pirates, and 5 out of 5 pcs would rather go do something else. I'd love to run these bad boys - just not for this party.
Thank you!
the reason i'd skip Rise and Shattered is that they happen geographically pretty far from where your PCs want to be from; Rise starts out in a 2 bit town and your PCs really should have some connection to it - Shattered is based on a deep exploration of Varisia, and your party doesn't really seem like they would be a good fit for that.
CARRION CROWN however, starts off with bringing a party of however much diversity you want, and has some of the other themes you were looking for, like lost power, and old patrons.
Look at the forum threads for tips - there's a problem with tying in the BBEG from book 6 into the published material if...
Thanks! Sounds like a plan, then! Really curious about Carrion Crown now, need to check it out and have a look at those threads you mention (I guess we can come up with more fitting parties for the Runelords cycle!).
Of course there's also Legacy of Fire which might work, it looked promising... need to have a better look at both...
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+1 for Carrion Crown. The timeline is also fairly flexible, so if you need to work in a sidequest or two between books, you can do that. (There's theoretically a time limit, but you can always adjust it as needed, since it's pretty much 'can the party stop this guy before he does this thing?' and how long it takes him to do the thing is nebulous.)
Our GM did a great job at tying the BBEG in starting from book 1; he read those same threads Yakman mentioned, I think. He kept sending the party taunting letters in true villain fashion. (In our game, he actually ended up being my PC's father--she didn't know who her father was at the beginning and I told the GM to play with that as he liked...so that was what he did.)
Serpent's Skull might also work. The PCs start off shipwrecked and then stumble into some clues to a lost city (so their backgrounds could be pretty disparate in that, too).
+1 for Carrion Crown. The timeline is also fairly flexible, so if you need to work in a sidequest or two between books, you can do that. (There's theoretically a time limit, but you can always adjust it as needed, since it's pretty much 'can the party stop this guy before he does this thing?' and how long it takes him to do the thing is nebulous.)
Our GM did a great job at tying the BBEG in starting from book 1; he read those same threads Yakman mentioned, I think. He kept sending the party taunting letters in true villain fashion. (In our game, he actually ended up being my PC's father--she didn't know who her father was at the beginning and I told the GM to play with that as he liked...so that was what he did.)
Serpent's Skull might also work. The PCs start off shipwrecked and then stumble into some clues to a lost city (so their backgrounds could be pretty disparate in that, too).
Carrion Crown sounds really good. I still haven't been able to check those threads, but I infer the villain is never introduced before part 6, for starters.
"Meraki! I am your father!".
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!".
Serpent's Skull was my initial idea too, because the ship's passengers can come from such a wide range of ports...
Right now I'm conflicted between Skull, Crown and Legacy of Fire. I need to read them more carefully and start vetting them with my group.
well... it's pretty simple:
horror v. indiana jones v. arabian nights
now, Legacy will also involve playing 3.5 or converting it over to pathfinder (not a huge lift, but we all have time constraints).
But that's too much oversimplification! XD
Yes, Crown is very much horror but for instance it includes elements of the struggle against the Biggest Baddest Guy on Golarion (or at least one of them, up there in the highest echelons).
Legacy, yes, it has lots of genies, but it feels quite different from Arabian Nights to me considering some of the opposition, themes and setting - plus, the villain's endgame ties in with a different BBEG of the setting, nothing to do with Aladin and Sherazade.
No, I'll need to check them out more attentively as soon as I have a little time. I'm really undecided, but I need to see more of what's in each AP and what it brings to the table.
Thank you though ;)
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Yes, Crown is very much horror but for instance it includes elements of the struggle against the Biggest Baddest Guy on Golarion (or at least one of them, up there in the highest echelons).
For a long time, one of the major criticisms of Carrion Crown was that its "elements of struggle against the [Whispering Tyrant]" were something of a bait-and-switch, and never amounted to very much. Go figure, we're going to actually fight Tar-Baphon himself in Tyrant's Grasp.
A thought: Reign of Winter might be an outside choice for this party. The starting area is Anytown, Golarion and whisks the party off to the action quickly, so accommodating disparate origins might not be such a barrier. It also assumes after a while that no matter how exotic the party members are to each other, they will eventually become familiar touchstones in a world gone mad. Themes of rediscovering Old Magic are present, especially in Books 5 and 6. And the party is give the choice to aid or oppose their god-like patron.
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+1 for Carrion Crown. The timeline is also fairly flexible, so if you need to work in a sidequest or two between books, you can do that. (There's theoretically a time limit, but you can always adjust it as needed, since it's pretty much 'can the party stop this guy before he does this thing?' and how long it takes him to do the thing is nebulous.)
Carrion Crown sounds really good. I still haven't been able to check those threads, but I infer the villain is never introduced before part 6, for starters.
Book 1 of CC has a "local reputation" sub-system which needs a small fix. I'm AFB right now, but IIRC there's a fix in either the CC sub-forum (GM's thread?) or the product page discussion.
Thanks Bellona - I still have to check them, but good to know. Sounds like they'll be a necessary stop before tackling the AP.
I'm rather surprised you're gonna fight the Lichest of Them All, zimmerwald1915 - afaik that's very much a departure from the standard AP, and further, even though I've never seen a stat block for the old bastard, he should be a mythic beast, a demigod... he destroyed Arazni when she was Aroden's herald, for starters, and according to Mythic Origins a herald is a mythic character as well. Perhaps Tar-Baphon isn't at full power yet after a thousand years of imprisonment... or perhaps your party is stronger than I'm giving it credit for.
I thought Reign of Winter started in Taldor - and I'm noticing that apart from a couple very famous moments in the AP, I probably know nothing about it. What's more, I think I have too big a lack of familiarity with most of them, and I don't like this. I guess I'll have at least a quick read of the synopsis for each of them, probably a look at the player's guides as well... If I want to find the perfect AP for this party I might need to *actually do some work* (gasp!).
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Thanks Bellona - I still have to check them, but good to know. Sounds like they'll be a necessary stop before tackling the AP.
I'm rather surprised you're gonna fight the Lichest of Them All, zimmerwald1915 - afaik that's very much a departure from the standard AP, and further, even though I've never seen a stat block for the old bastard, he should be a mythic beast, a demigod... he destroyed Arazni when she was Aroden's herald, for starters, and according to Mythic Origins a herald is a mythic character as well. Perhaps Tar-Baphon isn't at full power yet after a thousand years of imprisonment... or perhaps your party is stronger than I'm giving it credit for.
I thought Reign of Winter started in Taldor - and I'm noticing that apart from a couple very famous moments in the AP, I probably know nothing about it. What's more, I think I have too big a lack of familiarity with most of them, and I don't like this. I guess I'll have at least a quick read of the synopsis for each of them, probably a look at the player's guides as well... If I want to find the perfect AP for this party I might need to *actually do some work* (gasp!).
Reign of Winter does start in Taldor, but there's no reason why it has to.
That being said, it starts in a small town in the middle of nowhere. If your party is committed to this particular set of characters it probably wouldn't jive super well with the start of the AP (which quickly goes off the rails in any event).
Thanks Bellona - I still have to check them, but good to know. Sounds like they'll be a necessary stop before tackling the AP.
I'm rather surprised you're gonna fight the Lichest of Them All, zimmerwald1915 - afaik that's very much a departure from the standard AP, and further, even though I've never seen a stat block for the old bastard, he should be a mythic beast, a demigod... he destroyed Arazni when she was Aroden's herald, for starters, and according to Mythic Origins a herald is a mythic character as well. Perhaps Tar-Baphon isn't at full power yet after a thousand years of imprisonment... or perhaps your party is stronger than I'm giving it credit for.
I thought Reign of Winter started in Taldor - and I'm noticing that apart from a couple very famous moments in the AP, I probably know nothing about it. What's more, I think I have too big a lack of familiarity with most of them, and I don't like this. I guess I'll have at least a quick read of the synopsis for each of them, probably a look at the player's guides as well... If I want to find the perfect AP for this party I might need to *actually do some work* (gasp!).
Reign of Winter does start in Taldor, but there's no reason why it has to.
That being said, it starts in a small town in the middle of nowhere. If your party is committed to this particular set of characters it probably wouldn't jive super well with the start of the AP (which quickly goes off the rails in any event).
You know, I've read the synopses, and... I'm not convinced. Every AP has its own shtick, and nothing looks particulary good for this party. Sure, maybe Carrion Crown or Legacy of Fire - but for the former, more horror-themed characters would fit better, while for the latter, people with greater ties to Katapesh, genies, and a certain god (and his divine nemesis).
The same holds true for, hell, practically all APs. Sure, we love this party, but personally I'd ask my players to create different pcs with different guidelines in the case of each of the APs.
I might run modules for each of these characters - for instance there's a very cool one set in the Mana Wastes for the Alkenstar tinkerer alchemist, I bet there are good ones for the catfolk barb, the snowcaster magus, the wyvaran monk and the Tian-Min shaman. And then perhaps they might be all poised to take part in a chain of modules together. I dunno, I think it's possible.
What I'm thinking though is that, as much as we love these guys, we'd do better to create a new party explicitly for the AP we want to try. Otherwise we're missing out on some great concepts that would really shine in different circumstances.
Sure, we could take them and plunge them into any one AP, no matter what, whatever strikes our fancy - but the best parties have intimate ties with their adventures, imo. Personal stakes, hated enemies, appropriate locations, the works.
I think I'll have a look at the modules we have, see if there's something good for each of them, and perhaps a series for the whole party.
Worst comes to worst, we keep them on the backburner and hope Paizo writes a miraculously fitting AP soon, no matter the edition.
Of course... I could write something myself O_O
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The party as described in the OP is indeed rather ... eclectic, and probably would be better off with a series of different modules stitched together with some homebrew glue.
Most of the AP's Player's Guides try to point the players in the direction of the most suitable type of characters (races, classes, specific class features like favoured terrain/enemies, etc.). Some of them are better at this than others (a case of listening to forum feedback and adjusting the format, I believe).
Above all, one AP-specific campaign trait should be handed out (for free) to each PC starting the relevant AP. They are part of the glue that helps a PC to slot into the AP. Some APs expect the party to be locals, others expect outsiders (not those from the Outer Planes), and yet others are formed for a mixture of both local and outsider origins. Also: one should not be tempted to mix and match campaign traits from other APs. What might be a suitable trait for one AP could easily be over-powered for another one.
By the way, I recommend that anyone playing a Barbarian, Rogue, or Summoner use the Pathfinder Unchained version. The unchained versions strengthen or simplify where needed, cut out some potential rules abuse, and (in the Summoner's case) basically present the class and associated spell list as it should have been originally.
The unchained Monk is also good (d10 hit dice and full BAB), but should be presented as more of an optional choice as it does not always mix well with archetypes published prior to PU. (This is less of a problem with archetypes published after PU.)
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree regarding the Unchained classes - they're much better in general than their classic counterparts, more balanced, more customizable, more effective... they lack the full range of archetypes found elsewhere but that can be fixed with a little homebrewing at worst.
The party is indeed very unfocused and thematically all over the place, even if I were homebrewing I wouldn't know what exactly to throw at them. And even in their original 4e campaign they never felt really tied to the plot, generally speaking. They were pretty awesome, sure, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Something else I'm thinking is that I should anchor these pcs more into Golarion's lore. For instance, the players and I know the elf must be a magus, and a snowcaster. That said, he could also be a half-elf, perhaps, and as long as he can mix arcane magic and swordsmanship, not necessarily a magus. Secondarily, we need to decide why he has it in so much for his father, and what makes the latter so powerful and villainous. And, third, we need to find him a decently diabolic patron or something, decide how exactly he works the "power at any price" angle.
And this is just one character. The wyvaran monk needs a lot more background, too, and the Tian shaman requires a motivation to come to the Inner Sea instead of defending nature back home.
So, yeah, it's all well and good to convert an old party to a new set of rules... but when you plop them down into a new setting, and wish to have them actually *be a part of it*, things start to require a lot more thought, and probably some experience and research.
I'll need to think about it, that's for sure. I'll try to involve my players, as well, but I need to have a better grasp on the setting.
In the meantime we *could* make a party of people who actually *fit* in one of the APs...
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Yes, I wholeheartedly agree regarding the Unchained classes - they're much better in general than their classic counterparts, more balanced, more customizable, more effective... they lack the full range of archetypes found elsewhere but that can be fixed with a little homebrewing at worst.
The party is indeed very unfocused and thematically all over the place, even if I were homebrewing I wouldn't know what exactly to throw at them. And even in their original 4e campaign they never felt really tied to the plot, generally speaking. They were pretty awesome, sure, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Something else I'm thinking is that I should anchor these pcs more into Golarion's lore. For instance, the players and I know the elf must be a magus, and a snowcaster. That said, he could also be a half-elf, perhaps, and as long as he can mix arcane magic and swordsmanship, not necessarily a magus. Secondarily, we need to decide why he has it in so much for his father, and what makes the latter so powerful and villainous. And, third, we need to find him a decently diabolic patron or something, decide how exactly he works the "power at any price" angle.
And this is just one character. The wyvaran monk needs a lot more background, too, and the Tian shaman requires a motivation to come to the Inner Sea instead of defending nature back home.
So, yeah, it's all well and good to convert an old party to a new set of rules... but when you plop them down into a new setting, and wish to have them actually *be a part of it*, things start to require a lot more thought, and probably some experience and research.
I'll need to think about it, that's for sure. I'll try to involve my players, as well, but I need to have a better grasp on the setting.
In the meantime we *could* make a party of people who actually *fit* in one of the APs...
people do it all the time. and the player's guides are free downloads.
ONE SUGGESTION - these players seem to want to play a diverse set of characters... so download the pdfs to the APs we've suggested here which you liked and send them to the players. Get some feedback from them.
people do it all the time. and the player's guides are free downloads.
ONE SUGGESTION - these players seem to want to play a diverse set of characters... so download the pdfs to the APs we've suggested here which you liked and send them to the players. Get some feedback from them.
Indeed! Will do, Yakman, thanks for all the help. Let's see what they think of Carrion Crown, Legacy of Fire, Serpent's Skull... well, let's start with these.
Thanks again, everybody. If you have more observations, advice or suggestions, go ahead! In the meantime,
curtsies
;)
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Mummy's Mask sounds super cool, but I honestly know very little about it. By reading the player's guide the first ideas for characters that spring to mind would be a sphinx-friendly Pahmet dwarf, an Osiriani undead-hunting cleric of Pharasma, a Living Monolith, and of course the classic pulp archaeologist like Indiana Jones and Evelyn Carnahan (who could also be a sorcerer descended from the pharaohs btw).
IIRC, there is an Archaeologist archetype for Bards. Just apply bullwhip and hat! :)
That actually sounds like a decent party of five, particularly if the Pahmet dwarf has a class which can handle the front line too.
Mummy's Mask could be good platform for a very mixed party, particularly if the GM adds in a pre-book 1 "party lottery" (run by the Pharasmins?) to help smaller groups or solo adventurers to fill out a party roster.
Mummy's Mask sounds super cool, but I honestly know very little about it. By reading the player's guide the first ideas for characters that spring to mind would be a sphinx-friendly Pahmet dwarf, an Osiriani undead-hunting cleric of Pharasma, a Living Monolith, and of course the classic pulp archaeologist like Indiana Jones and Evelyn Carnahan (who could also be a sorcerer descended from the pharaohs btw).
IIRC, there is an Archaeologist archetype for Bards. Just apply bullwhip and hat! :)
That actually sounds like a decent party of five, particularly if the Pahmet dwarf has a class which can handle the front line too.
Mummy's Mask could be good platform for a very mixed party, particularly if the GM adds in a pre-book 1 "party lottery" (run by the Pharasmins?) to help smaller groups or solo adventurers to fill out a party roster.
Yep, there's an archaeologist archetype for bards, I think it would work very well for Mummy's Mask. Even though I think it would have been more appropriate for a rogue or an investigator, perhaps.
The Pahmet could indeed be a fighter, they have very cool combat styles. I suppose a cleric or paladin would work too, but in any case a tank would probably be ideal (and I'd rather not have 2 divine classes in the same party, generally speaking - I usually ask my players to avoid too similar concepts).
That idea you had about the "party lottery" is interesting... it would help disparate characters form a party, different backgrounds notwithstanding. Of course a friendly barroom brawl could help too, or something like that, but this is probably a very fitting AP for a party lottery, considering the way it starts.
Another point for ‘Legacy of Fire’ from me.
‘Carrion Crown,’ despite the intro “PCs-come-from-all-around-for-friend’s-funeral” just doesn’t seem to fit a couple of those PCs.
LoF really does. As does ‘Mummy’s Mask’ or, actually, ‘Kingmaker.’
Huh, Legacy is really garnering approval.
Kingmaker... I dunno, these characters don't seem very much into the whole "building a kingdom" business. And many of them come from quite far away from the River Kingdoms, although this doesn't really make it or break it, one could always come up with something.
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My best bets for this group would be Reign of Winter or Mummy's Mask.
Reign of Winter is very eclectic in the challenges you encounter, which might work well for such an eclectic group. You could simply skip the first book and have the hut pick each of them up from their starting location, avoiding the lowest levels of play or adding a low-level adventure inside the hut itself where the PCs meet and have to become a team in order to survive.
The premise for Mummy's Mask would work really well - they have all heard of this amazing opportunity in Osirion, attracting people from all over the world. And it is a very good AP, especially the first four parts. Lots of different situations, not at all as single-track as Serpent's Crown.
Shattered Star could work, using the Pathfinder Society as the plot device that brings the PCs together. Personally, I think the overall plot here is kind of weak, but that's me. If you add the Pathfinder Society to another AP, this plot device could work in almost any of them - I used it in Mummy's Mask.
Serpent's Crown has an adventure hook that would work, but it requires more buy-in than most APs. It is very single-track, you have to sell the idea of jungle exploration to the players.
Strange Aeons also has a hook that would work perfectly, but again requires a buy-in from the players. Not everyone is up for mind-warping cosmic horror. If they are up for it, I think it could work beautifully.
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THis is a group begging for the Runelords experience! Start with either Rise of the Runelords or Shattered Star if you've already completed the former.
My best bets for this group would be Reign of Winter or Mummy's Mask.
Reign of Winter is very eclectic in the challenges you encounter, which might work well for such an eclectic group. You could simply skip the first book and have the hut pick each of them up from their starting location, avoiding the lowest levels of play or adding a low-level adventure inside the hut itself where the PCs meet and have to become a team in order to survive.
The premise for Mummy's Mask would work really well - they have all heard of this amazing opportunity in Osirion, attracting people from all over the world. And it is a very good AP, especially the first four parts. Lots of different situations, not at all as single-track as Serpent's Crown.
Shattered Star could work, using the Pathfinder Society as the plot device that brings the PCs together. Personally, I think the overall plot here is kind of weak, but that's me. If you add the Pathfinder Society to another AP, this plot device could work in almost any of them - I used it in Mummy's Mask.
Serpent's Crown has an adventure hook that would work, but it requires more buy-in than most APs. It is very single-track, you have to sell the idea of jungle exploration to the players.
Strange Aeons also has a hook that would work perfectly, but again requires a buy-in from the players. Not everyone is up for mind-warping cosmic horror. If they are up for it, I think it could work beautifully.
Reign of Winter - I love part 5 from what I've read, but for the rest, a whole AP about cold environments? Really? I mean, that's my gut answer, as I said there are parts I like, and the bbeg and her plan are good. Glad to know it's a well-done AP, I actually have never read a lot of it =P
Shattered Star could be interesting, I agree - I know very little of the plot (I just read the last part, which is pretty awesome, but they all tend to be when briefly glanced at), but there's a tie to the Thassilonian Empire, which is very iconic, and the hunt for the fragments of the star could be either monotonous, or a classic. Who knows (whomever played it, that's whom).
Mummy's Mask could perhaps be too focused on Osirion, and Serpent's Crown on jungle travel and survival. Neither is a deal-breaker (nothing is, actually, the only wrong AP would be Hell's Vengeance for these characters, b/c alignment)... while I don't see much related to Osirion in this party, at least Skull has you stumble
Mask has those sweet
Strange Aeons is too lovecraftian for these guys. Carrion Crown is still horror, but classic horror is... classic. Not that Lovecraft isn't classic, but it has such a distinctive feel. I can't envision this party "fighting Cthulhu".
I'll tell you what I envision this party doing - I'll tell all of you guys, not in this post though, just a moment.
First I'd like to thank Starfox and everyone else who's helping me and my group making up our minds. Even when I doubt an AP would be fitting, it's still food for thought, so everything helps. And you've done a lot to dispel some of my ignorance and have me actually read some of the plots of these campaigns, and more setting lore, and class archetypes... amazing how much you can get done with some help!
So, yes, first of all, thank you guys. You've all been very helpful and full of good advice.
More requests for specific advice later in this thread ;P
THis is a group begging for the Runelords experience! Start with either Rise of the Runelords or Shattered Star if you've already completed the former.
I hear ya. The Runelords are such perfect bbegs it's not even funny - and Varisia is such a classic and well-detailed region!...
We ARE actually planning to give RotR a try... just not with this party. We do love these characters but I have given a good read to most of the Anniversary Edition, and some concepts have come up. I've discussed them all, and more, with my guys, and of course they've started brainstorming character ideas - so now they have the beginnings of a party for good old Sandpoint. A different party =P
We must still tackle some unknowns, but this will probably be the next thing we play - and quite soon, too!
Aaand triple-post.
So, as you might have read above my group is getting ready with a different party for RotR (I just noticed that with Return of the Runelords out this acronym won't work properly anymore - Rise, Anniversary Edition, not Return - not yet).
By the way the party right now is made up of
* a Varisian tattooed sorceress with the Imperious bloodline and brilliant purple eyes (nudge nudge, wink wink). Of course she wants to investigate where her powers come from.
* a Shriikirri-Quah Shoanti ranger (hunter?) with an already combat-trained horse (OP trait is OP). He wants revenge against the giants who killed his father, and also, during his initiation the spirits enigmatically pointed towards Sandpoint.
* an aasimar (musetouched I think), cleric of Desna (archetype yet to be determined) roving the countryside helping people. Good counterpoint for another famous aasimar in the campaign, and
* and... right now one of the guys is thinking we need a Chelaxian too, and we're tentatively thinking of making him an investigator (good for many of the plots in the AP at least, can fight, find traps...).
If you have suggestions, advice, whatever, please feel free. We still have to think about some of this, they're not complete characters yet.
(Yes, one player is missing - he says he's not sure he'll be able to actually commit to an AP, what with work, family... we're unhappy of course. We'll see what happens, perhaps he could play Shalelu for at least a while, or I don't know. We'll see).
Okay, so this means: the party I was previously talking about is on the back burner right now.
... That doesn't mean I can very easily get them out of my head. And most of my players are almost as obsessive as me.
So even if this has turned into just a character-building excercise, at least for now, we still are trying to convert those characters as best we can and perhaps even find them a series of modules, or, hell, an AP.
The biggest problems we're having is in the background of a couple of them.
* The elf - or half-elf, we're not sure - he should have a father like the Prince of Frost, who was a 4e archfey obsessed with winter and lost love, and quite evil for complicately related reasons. I don't know of an Eldest who could be a stand-in for the Prince, though, or some powerful villain at least. We wanted to make him a snowcaster, but I have no recollection of snowcaster npcs in any setting book, so... we're fairly confident we want an at least partly elven character, yeah. But there's also the extra problem Golarion elves have nothing to do with fey, for instance. So, yeah, this character is a pain in the neck, from that standpoint at least.
* The wyvaran... if we had to do a similarly accurate background translation, we'd need an apparently well-meaning organization/church/faction, and that he was an enforcer for them, convinced of their righteousness. We don't know whether he no longer is, already, or if that will come with play, but later on he should definitely understand he was wrong in supporting them, and even fight back. I'm looking at many Inner Sea factions these days (I still haven't checked Tian Xia) and I'm at a loss. Golarion has plenty of spectacular villains, but most end up being very clear-cut, so...
And there you have it. I think we'll have to simply adapt these characters to Golarion, and cut ourselves some slack, but in case you have ideas for their backgrounds...
Oh, yeah, I said I would tell you what I envision this party doing - also based on the incomplete 4e campaign they come from.
Well, they investigate ancient ruins, possibly rife with lost magic and technology that could perhaps bring great, beneficial innovations to at least part of the setting. They also fight against some evil threatening the natural world and its balance. If this evil happens to be related to the wyvaran's old faction, we're golden. And of course since pretty-boy elf has an Oedipal complex the size of the Mindspin Mountains he makes deals upon deals with questionable entities so that he can go back and kill his dad sooner or later, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
So, yeah, migraine-inducing levels of navel-gazing here. Join at your own risk ;D
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just as a broader point - and i welcome feedback/criticism - this is why it's probably better for the DM to pick the adventure prior to the players picking characters.
these seem like players who are creative... but without restrictions they just threw out a bunch of stuff at the wall. and now the DM has to pick an adventure to fit them... and that's not really fair for the players or the DM.
i dunno. just a thought.
campaign first, pcs second.
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I like the combination of both GM and players picking the adventure first.
From the resulting lists I could then present each player with a much shorter list of the APs which were of interest to everyone in that particular group. Then each player marked his/her top five choices on the short list. The AP with the most "top choices" became the next AP to be played.
End result: my RotR 1 group will be going (north-)eastward with the Jade Regent AP, and my RotR 2 group will be staying more local with CotCT. Although this means that I now have to run two different APs at the same time, it also means that I'll have an easier time keeping remembering which NPC/monster is still alive for a particular group (and less chance of cross-group spoilers). :)
Then comes the official session 0, with character creation.
just as a broader point - and i welcome feedback/criticism - this is why it's probably better for the DM to pick the adventure prior to the players picking characters.
these seem like players who are creative... but without restrictions they just threw out a bunch of stuff at the wall. and now the DM has to pick an adventure to fit them... and that's not really fair for the players or the DM.
i dunno. just a thought.
campaign first, pcs second.
Absolutely, you won't hear a rebuttal from me. The characters for Rise are coming up real well and they fit, most of all. If you generate the characters first you'd better be ready and homebrew everything to adapt it especially to your party, while if you want to run a module, or an AP, it is vastly better to choose which one first - with your players' input of course, as Bellona points out in her post (Bellona I'm using the feminine pronoun b/c your homonym was a goddess, hit me on the head if needed! ^___^ ).
Incidentally, the reverse method can work in special cases: some weeks ago I decided to start an AP for another friend who right now has no group and can't join this one because logistics. I just asked him what character he wanted to play, and he came up with this great paladin of Iomedae, slightly in the vein of Joan of Arc. We nailed down some details together and now I'm running Wrath of the Righteous for him, and he's really loving it. Of course he's just one person, and it's vastly easier to find a campaign that fits a single character than one for a party of 5 O_O
As for the old, semi-converted party, back in the day I used to run a homemade campaign, but I've had my eye on Paizo's APs since they published Rise (gods, where did the time go?). There really is a wealth of beautiful scenarios for PF. When we discovered we could potentially convert all of those characters we were just too excited to pass up the opportunity, so we just did (at least, we started doing it). It'd be nice if we found an AP or a series of modules to plop them in, but it's not like we're not gonna be able to play otherwise. We're just very fond of them.
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I think it goes both ways. Sometimes, it's good to have the adventure chosen beforehand and let the players customize their PCs to fit. Other times, the players might have a character concept in mind for any adventure. One might also cobble together campaigns from various sources, be it Dungeon Magazine adventures, Adventure Paths or modules, and then the players won't have campaign specific characters, yet should have a bit more input into choosing the next installment of their campaign.
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I think it goes both ways. Sometimes, it's good to have the adventure chosen beforehand and let the players customize their PCs to fit. Other times, the players might have a character concept in mind for any adventure. One might also cobble together campaigns from various sources, be it Dungeon Magazine adventures, Adventure Paths or modules, and then the players won't have campaign specific characters, yet should have a bit more input into choosing the next installment of their campaign.
a PC concept is a bit different from what the OP was presenting.
the OP said these are the PCs, who they are, where they are from, what classes they are, and they have these particular backstories.
Yeah, Yakman is right - loose PC concepts can be adapted to a particular campaign, it's easy for most DMs even with just a bit of experience, but we're somehow trying to replicate a lot of details from these pcs' past lives in 4e to Golarion, and that's quite labor-intensive, I must say.
Anyways Grognard's right - I could cobble together a campaign from a variety of sources. I'll mention I really love Paizo's APs and modules (I like even the little I've read of Starfinder, and I'm usually a hard SF chick), but if I'm not eventually won over by either Legacy of Fire, nor Serpent's Skull, nor Carrion Crown... well, I'll simply have to take some modules and homebrew them together.
I could also come up with a completely new thing, all of my invention... I vastly prefer professional adventure designers to what I'm usually able to come up with, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time.
Starfinder is great. Highly recommended. Been playing it since it came out and been having a blast.
Are you playing the APs? And, what's the part you're enjoying the most?
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Starfinder is great. Highly recommended. Been playing it since it came out and been having a blast.Are you playing the APs? And, what's the part you're enjoying the most?
we are in book 5 of dead suns (although the last session ended with the party on the verge of a TPK... so we might be starting a new AP after that!). I also play society.
i really like the action economy and the simplified mathematics (there's no such thing as a 'negative level' or ability score damage). It really makes the game faster. and you can play with a piece of paper, not hero lab!
I like character creation and advancement. there are no dead levels (iirc) and there's lots of flexibility when you combine class specializations with the dozens and dozens of races which have come out already.
Finally, i like the canon. It's a big stonking universe of adventure which lets you run a ton of different stories within the same continuity.
Starfinder is great. Highly recommended. Been playing it since it came out and been having a blast.Are you playing the APs? And, what's the part you're enjoying the most?we are in book 5 of dead suns (although the last session ended with the party on the verge of a TPK... so we might be starting a new AP after that!). I also play society.
i really like the action economy and the simplified mathematics (there's no such thing as a 'negative level' or ability score damage). It really makes the game faster. and you can play with a piece of paper, not hero lab!
I like character creation and advancement. there are no dead levels (iirc) and there's lots of flexibility when you combine class specializations with the dozens and dozens of races which have come out already.
Finally, i like the canon. It's a big stonking universe of adventure which lets you run a ton of different stories within the same continuity.
Sounds pretty cool. Simplified math in particular sounds great.
I have seen the races, hot damn they've gone wild with them. Really Mos Eisley cantina effect (which I think is the feel they were going for). There are species for all tastes.
I hope you don't get TPK'd! Good hunting!
I am also a huge, huge fan of Starfinder! I highly recommend it!
We've been playing it since it was released.
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On sidenote, Whispering Tyrant does have stats in Mythic Realms(He is CR 26. I guess if he got out of the seal, he could easily climb up even higher considering track record of other level 20 max mythic power npc spell casters)
Anyhoo on those three APs: I unfortunately don't know much about Legacy of Fire since its 3.5, but Carrion Crown is pretty episodic in nature(each of the books focuses on different aspect of horror. Like one of them is "Frankenstein monster" book, one of them is werewolf book, one of them is vampire book and another one is lovecraft book"). Serpent's Skull on other hand starts great, but book 2 and 3 need rework to be better while final three books are mostly dungeon crawling.