| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I'm getting ready to start A History of Ashes next week and I'm a little underwhelmed at the Cinderlands. You have this potentially fabulous environment with the first (and really only) opportunity for wilderness exploration and there's no sense of danger. There's no guidance on how to navigate and survive the Cinderlands, other than conveniently being provided with boneslayer guides once they get to the Kallow Mounds. While spells like Create Water make desert travel much less hazardous, there are all sorts of other dangers from both creatures and the environment. For example, things get much more interesting if they're fleeing a sandstorm or get ambushed by monsters and some of the Party's horses get killed. Not mention dealing with heat, battles while crossing ravines, etc.
To try and fill this gap, I've been looking at Frog God Games' "Dunes of Desolation", which is a fabulous guide for desert adventuring. I'm combining it with AngryGM's wilderness travel tips to try and make things more exciting.
Also, some of the options for gaining respect seem just a little ho-hum. Go to what is basically a one-room temple and kill a monster. After dealing with the havero, the rest of the Thrallkeepers' Acropolis seems kind of tedious. Would love to hear any suggestions for making this whole part of the adventure more interesting. (And for the record, I do like the sound of the Cindermaw and the Trial of the Totem encounters).
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Thanks - giants should certainly spice things up! I don't usually use random encounters, but I agree this is one instance where I think it adds to the sense of danger. I generally prefer to expedite travel to "get to the good stuff", but surviving the journey through the Cinderlands should be as important as the planned encounters.
I also want the environment to add to the difficulty - like one of the PCs getting attacked by a swarm of killer ants that burrow up from underground at night, forcing them to start looking for rocky ground that's safer to sleep on, or giant scorpions ambushing the PCs during a dust storm that makes it harder for them to see.
|
The Cinderlands wiki article has some information from the cinderlands article from history of ashes, which may not be in the hardcover, as well as the blog on it and the the campaign setting. This might allow for some additional ideas for you.
As Cpt_kirstov notes, most of the material on the Cinderlands is in the support article in the original History of Ashes volume, and not re-printed in the hardcover compilation of the AP.
Something you may want to consider is to overlay a grid of 12-mile hexes on the map, and treat the overland journey as exploration (using the rules in Ultimate Campaign or Ultimate Wilderness; I think I prefer the simpler rules in UC over UW, personally).
Thanks for the heads up - I'm working from the hardcover so the additional info is helpful. I've pulled together a list of random creature and environmental encounters, and I'll check out those UC and UW exploration rules. It's tough finding a balance between having enough going on that they feel like they're overcoming obstacles without things bogging down. Will take longer than if they just "fast travel" from one major encounter to the next, but hopefully it ups the ante and sense of danger.
Also, I found the following DM's page with a really helpful compilation of info.
Also, I found the following DM's page with a really helpful compilation of info.
Some of that looks like it was cut-and-pasted from the support article on the Cinderlands from the AP. As such, it may be subject to complaints.
Other parts look like that GM modified the content to fit his/her own game, set in another world than Golarion, so you may not find all of the content explained.
Wayfinder #7 (a free fanzine here on Paizo.com) has content expanding on the materials of the first APs. A lot of it is Rise of the Runelords, but there are a few bits for the other APs as well. In addition, one of the Runelords pieces does what I suggested.. overlays the exploration rules on an area of the AP. So that might give you an idea of what it would be like.
Thanks! I'll take a look at the Wayfinder you mentioned. Yes, the website is obviously a transplant of the Cinderlands to Eberron, but it just looks like a DM's page for his campaign so I doubt there's too many copyright issues involved. I was, however, rather disappointed to learn that pretty significant content was cut from the hardcover. I thought I was getting the "deluxe" version of the AP. What else was stripped out of the hardcover version?
Thanks! I'll take a look at the Wayfinder you mentioned. Yes, the website is obviously a transplant of the Cinderlands to Eberron, but it just looks like a DM's page for his campaign so I doubt there's too many copyright issues involved. I was, however, rather disappointed to learn that pretty significant content was cut from the hardcover. I thought I was getting the "deluxe" version of the AP. What else was stripped out of the hardcover version?
I just noticed that the Wayfinder content "Ruling Rannick" is actually adjacent to the Cinderlands, more or less, so that article on using the Exploration and Kingdom rules may be even more help than I thought.
As for the Hardcover, it is a compiled, updated, and in some areas expanded version of the Adventure Path. The Pathfinder volumes are like a magazine, with an adventure + support articles. Part of the goal is so that even if someone does not like the adventure itself, subscribers can still get articles that expand on the world in some way.
All of the necessary pieces are included in the Appendices. The ones that are not there were mostly not directly related to the AP (the Cinderlands and the articles on Varisian and Shoanti daily life) were nice-to-have items in the originals ... not required, but useful if the GM wanted to expand on those areas.
In the original six books, there were also a series of journal entries at the end of each book written from the point of view of a pathfinder crossing the cinderlands.
That was helpful.
What was that pathfinder's name? He is very famous.
I used the random encounter tables in the back of the book for inspiration. And, the best thing of all are the emberstorms! Mine were fatal. They were like tresses of sarenrae spiked forest fires--so you better run and take cover. Once my players took cover in a dark cave, and when they lit a torch they found themselves amid the coils of a deadly giant fire-rattler. They spent the next few hours quietly trying not to move and startle the snake as they all rode out the storm together.
So I went ahead a got a copy of the original Chapter 4, and I was really surprised at how much was left out in the anniversary edition. I can understand leaving out the journal, but all the background info on the Cinderlands environment and Shoanti isn't fluff - it's crucial to making the land come alive. The anniversary edition doesn't feel "expanded" to me, more like stripped down. But I eat up background info so maybe that's just me!
We had our first session and we're taking the travel day by day. Even if there isn't an actual random encounter, I'll describe a large herd of aurochs blocking their path, or having to seek cover from a duststorm, or walking through a field of cindercones with filaments of Sarenrae's Tresseses blowing across the ground. It slows things down, but they commented they feel the land is trying to kill them as much as any actual enemies.
I definitely agree with you, Sarlax, that the quests in the Cinderlands should be made more meaningful, but your suggestions need more background to fit in the overall story.
Amarund, the Shoanti member of the Palatine Eye Shoani who helped defeat Kazavon, returned to the Cinderlands after her quests. He (or she) scattered clues to his quest in his homeland.
After all, the Sun shaman did return home after defeating Kazavon, but his home was in the lowlands, more specifically where Korvosa is now. Kazavon was defeated over six centuries ago, while the Shoanti did not leave for the Cinderlands until 200 to 300 years ago.
So you would have to come up with a convincing story to explain why the Sun shaman traveled to the Cinderlands. Possibly he went there looking for a way to destroy the artefact.
|
I just finished running this book for my players and I was worried going in. For them, the inhospitable environment and access to two full casters meant they just teleported to rest back in Kaer Maga and teleported back the next day, so the threat of the environment only really existed while they traveled on foot.
Instead I decided to focus on the characters and organizations moving about the area as the hook. The environment wasn't going to challenge them, but that doesn't make alliances. Their alliance with the Shoanti starts pretty fragile, so their guides were often targets for the Red Mantis. More than once they had to shift tactics to protect their allies (including bringing some back from the dead).
I played up the Truthspeaker's interest in the party, and showed him to be a helpful and competent ally. The moon clan's intro with retaking the shrine was a bit "too dumb to live" for my taste, but I made it about their pride in front of outsiders more than a cultural need to avenge their comrades. I tied the Truthspeaker's arrival to a random encounter where he was able to show off that he wasn't just some helpless old man and that he had his own motives.
I made the choice to do the Vault before the last few challenges, as I wanted to break up the flow a bit. I had the Truthspeaker come with them as a witness to their deeds. When he was able to recount the efforts the party went to, saving Cinnabar from herself, but also using magic to capture many of the Grey Maidens alive it fed into the narrative. I gave them Respect Points for taking prisoners, flavoring it as the Truthspeaker telling the Sun Clan that they are strong enough to not fear weaker enemies.
I also played up the politics by changing rebuilding the Red Mantis Assassins who attack the PCs in Flameford to be a kill team of specialists sent to kill them. I left notes in the vault detailing the PCs origins and known abilities, as well as names and info on these specialist assassins. It gave the book a thrilling conclusion and my players were excited when the illusions failed on each assassin, replacing each generic red mantis with a unqiue foe.
So hopefully this provides some inspiration for other parts of the story to focus on if "desolate land of heat and monsters" gets old.
Thanks for all the suggestions - gives me plenty to think about! I'm a big fan of plot twists, alliances, and intrigue, so the more the better! Also trying to think of a better way to use Laori and Sial in all this. Although she came to their aid when they ended up battling the Emperor of Old Korvosa (and Rolth, who had relocated there after his first defeat at the hands of the Party), they are very split on her. A couple are intrigued by her, but the cleric of Desna wants nothing to do with her.
I just started running A History of Ashes right now and came up with a doc that combined the AngryGM's wilderness travel tips with stuff from 5e's Tomb of Annihilation. At the end I put my Cinderlands encounters as an example. About half are non-combat encounters like Thassilonian ruins, diseases, friendly Ko-Minkas, dead bodies with a cashe of survival supplies, wild fires, etc. My players really like the way it ran. Here is a link to the homebrewery site (it only seems to work when opened in Chorme): Getting There is Half the Fun 2.0
I just started running A History of Ashes right now and came up with a doc that combined the AngryGM's wilderness travel tips with stuff from 5e's Tomb of Annihilation. At the end I put my Cinderlands encounters as an example. About half are non-combat encounters like Thassilonian ruins, diseases, friendly Ko-Minkas, dead bodies with a cashe of survival supplies, wild fires, etc. My players really like the way it ran. Here is a link to the homebrewery site (it only seems to work when opened in Chorme): Getting There is Half the Fun 2.0
This is great - thanks!
I've been thinking, wouldn't it make sense to have the assault on Flameford before the Trial of the Totem? This way the Party has a chance to save Krojun and earn additional reputation points before taking the Trial, which, I believe, is how they actually earn their membership in the tribe.
Since the Cinderlands are such a departure from Korvosa, I think you ought to double-down on how alien it should feel to city-folk. I just finished GMing this part of the AP and have some thoughts.
Make sure the Shoanti feel like a real culture. They should not feel like helpless savages just waiting for the PCs to fix things. The Shoanti should mostly hate these tishamek wandering into their territory expecting to learn their deepest cultural secrets.
Ditch the Boneslayer entourage. The Boneslayers make the Cinderlands less mysterious since they can just explain everything. They're also too fragile in an encounter that is level-appropriate for the PCs, which can cause some serious Respect damage if the PCs aren't willing to shell out thousands of gold when they almost inevitably die. Maybe, if the PCs feel incapable of navigating the Cinderlands, the Skoan-quah might grudgingly offer one, perhaps a novice, but make sure to really develop this guide so that if they die, it feels like a real loss. But it's better if the players are on their own since it makes things scarier for them.
I recommend making the "respect quests" more robust. I decided that Sun Shaman was under a geas-like oath that forbids him from sharing the truth with anyone who had demonstrated a commitment to the ways.
In retrospect, I would like to have made the big respect quests actually meaningful to the AP itself rather than just accumulating bragging rights. Otherwise, the PCs are just running around trying to look cool enough to learn a secret.
What I wish I'd done is put clues or MacGuffins in those sites. Here are some ideas:
* Amarund, the Shoanti member of the Palatine Eye Shoani who helped defeat Kazavon, returned to the Cinderlands after her quests. He (or she) scattered clues to his quest in his homeland.
* Amarund was a fire priest and died being devoured by a purple worm, which became Cindermaw. Cindermaw has some of Amarund's essence, and a PC who permits herself to be swallowed will gain some of Amarund's...
OMG I love your post. I was having many difficulties DMing this part, because they have so much guidance it seems a bit like... meh... And I like random encounters now and then, but sometimes they are too random, if that makes any sense.
Sadly, the Cinderlander proved to be no threat to my party of PCs, even accompanied by his animal companion and FOUR Red Mantis Assassins I placed there as "overwatchers" of the Cinderlander. He may have known how to hide his trail, but some Divination magic and, quite frankly, a good strategy (to teleport the party just in front of him and letting the barbarian scream the Cinderlander's soul away in an inevitable surprise round...) turned my take on the Cinderlander a rather boring one. They abused him just like a cat does with a mouse. Now, after that, I come across some ideas I might have had to make it a little more interesting, but back in the moment I wasn't so fast.
But I will make sure to spice things up using your advice. It sounds quite helpful and I will try to make it work.
Thank you so much and congratulations for such a helpful post!!