|
I have a level 8 alchemist currently running the Giantslayer AP. I have been doing a lot of research about how bombs work and I want to confirm that I am not overlooking something in how I read (or implement) the rules in regards to bombs.
Character: Level 8 ratfolk Alchemist (Grenadier)
Discoveries/Feats: Rapid shot, Fast Bombs
BAB +6/+1
Scenario: I have haste and elect to take a full round attack action. I get the following attacks (BAB without modifiers) +4/+4/+4/-1. I only have 12 bombs a day and I want to conserve my bombs. Therefore I would like to take +4/+4 with my longbow and +4/-1 with my bombs, so that I am not "wasting" a full round attack, nor am I burning through all of my bombs in 3 rounds of combat.
Rationale: Bombs are effected by "two weapon fighting" per Paizo FAQ. That means they must be considered a one handed weapon. Fast bombs allows for multiple bombs to be drawn, mixed, and thrown during a turn. When taking a full round attack, I can choose to use any weapon available to me, in any combination, during the iterative attacks.
How the turn looks mechanistically: Fire two shots with bow. Free action to release one hand from bow. Mix and throw two bombs. Free action to return hand to bow.
Is there anything I am missing? I have already explained my rationale to the GM, but I am hoping for more "concrete" support. Thanks!
That is not how it works. A bow is a two handed weapon so cannot be used with two weapon fighting period. Also even with fast bombs it is a full round action to throw more than one bomb. What you are trying to do is two full round actions in a single turn.
|
|
How am I trying to take two full round actions? I am only taking the same number of attacks that I would normally be allowed to take.
The attacks are from from Haste, Rapid Shot, and then my Iterative attack. The character does not have TWF, only rapid shot. The reason I mentioned TWF is because the ruling that TWF applies to bombs means that bombs must be one handed weapons.
I can clearly take 4 attacks with my bow. I can clearly take 4 attacks with my bombs. The thread is about whether or not I can take 2 with my bow and 2 with bombs, to which I would say "yes" based on the premise you can make a full round attack with whatever weapons you have available.
Fast bomb specifically states that the alchemist can throw additional bombs as a full round action. Throwing 2 or more bombs is a full round action. Attacking more than once with any weapon is a full round action. You are doing both which means you are doing two full round actions.
Bombs are not weapons they are a supernatural ability.
|
|
Thank you for the additional clarification, your point makes sense to me now. I think what was/is tripping me up is the:
An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.
Here is the language from the Multiple Weapon FAQ. It is focused on the question of a two weapon fighter so it isn't an apples to apples comparison- but it does have some interesting wording.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB , you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
In the FAQ, the major concern of the author was the number of attack. Moving/Removing a second hand from the bow would be a free action. I don't think it is a far step to say that since bombs function "just like a full attack with a range weapon" that an alchemist holding a bow and having a free hand has the opportunity to alternate which "weapon" he is using for each of his 4 attacks. The FAQ also clearly states that I can change weapons as much as I am able to (off hand, quickdraw, etc) and as long as I don't attempt to add an additional attack TWF doesn't apply. Functionally, I am not TWF with the bow and bombs because I am not attempting to increase the number of attacks that I am making.
Another example would starting the round with a longsword in one hand and a bow in another. You it is well within the rules to stab with the sword, kill the thing in front of you, drop the sword, free action to grip the bow, and take a bow shot with the last iterative attack. That isn't TWF.
Personally, I think the Rapid+TWF+ITWF+GWF with bombs is cheese and I am choosing not to use it, instead sticking with only rapidshot. Likewise, this question isn't a power-grab to add more power to the Alchemist/character, rather just trying to work out exactly how something functions (or should function). My THW paladin throws shruiken as part of his iterative base attack bonus and this isn't that much different. Ultimately, I would just like my character to be able to get full use out of the feats he is taking and the buffs his party is giving him.
Since the answer seems to be that it can't be done RAW, then I will have to ask my GM to houserule it for the game. My little ratfolk only does 1d6+1 damage with his bow, so "game balance" should still be pretty safe regardless of ruling.
Thanks everyone.
Considering the fast bomb FAQ
Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
I don't see why you couldn't combine them with a second weapon that only needed one hand for TWF or to dropping your two handed weapon and finishing your string of attacks. However your still going to be limited on attacks by the number of attacks per round you could get.
If you weren't two-weapon fighting, the "free hands" thing doesn't really matter, so long as you don't need to spend any further actions changing weapons. An alchemist 20 with bow in hand could fire two arrows, drop the bow, and chuck a bomb with no issue--except for the whole "full attack with bombs is its own separate action" thing, which is frankly stupid. There's no balance or mechanical reason to break the duck test there--bombs are a weapon and should be treated the same as any other. Nevertheless, it's the Rules Questions forum, so nope, can't mix bombs with any other weapon in the same "full attack".
|
|
Paizo has been incredibly (and likely intentionally) vague in how Alchemists interact with even the most basic framework of the game (bombs AND extracts). There is no indication from the rules themselves about whether or not "mixing" bombs is a one or two handed process. If you use the FAQ as a guide, it has to be a one handed process, because using your "off hand" can grant you extra attacks (at a penalty). There is no mechanistic way for the creation of bombs to take two hands and still gain an "extra" attack from the TWF feat.
Still, we hand wave (or forget) that an arcane caster can cast a spell with both material and somatic components one handed, while wielding a staff- that seems just as difficult as mixing a bomb one handed. Heck, if the bombs are like glow stick where a little bit of magical energy "cracks" a divider and activates the bomb, it is substantially easier than casting a spell would be.
In regards to thaX's point, I would view it this way: You only need one hand to make a bomb. The other hand can hold onto the bow. Letting go and grabbing the bow is a free action.
I agree with a point blahpers does make though. This scenario (alternating bow and bombs) only has a chance of working if the only feat applied is rapid shot. If you use TWF to increase the number of bombs that you can throw then you MUST drop your bow to have two free hands to gain the extra attacks.
|
Well, fine point, both hands are wielding the bow, so the "free" hand is technically busy.
But the arrow pulling hand can pull the bombs as far as it goes in that respect as the bow is being held by the aiming hand. What is not clear is if Bombs would take both hands to "mix" the Bomb, or if it is simply popped with the thumb like a grenade.
This is on top of both being full round actions, of course.