Last time I asked about using the Kirthfinder house rules, I didn't get any interest, so here's trying again...
Here's the pitch -- the setting is like the Francis Ford Coppola 1990s Dracula, and you're all reincarnated vampire hunters, sent from your rest in Heaven to confront Dracula's return, and who are on the infamous vampire's trail. You'd need to create both your present-day incarnation, and whoever you were in the 1500s as part of your back story.
Rules (I'm going to try to be comprehensive, I'll update again when issues inevitably come up I have to rule on).
Race: Human
Stats:
50 pt. buy. No max/min.
Class:
* Start at 5th level.
* Gestalt Vampire Hunter (you have to be this class)/Kirthfinder Class (this is a really cool set of house rules developed by a board member) KIRTHFINDER. We will use the classes. You can use either the Kirthfinder or normal version of skills or feats. We will use the normal Pathfinder combat rules. We will use the normal Pathfinder version of spell casting, but you can use either the Kirthfinder or normal version of spells.
* Gestalt Mythic paths, start at tier 2 (just like gestalt rules applied to mythic)
* Animal companions and familiars get 2 mythic tiers (though not gestalt) as well.
Feats:
* Everyone gets feat for stamina and combat tricks and skill unlocks for free.
* One feat per level as well as the bonus feat progression for the Fighter class (so the progression is as if you were a Fighter getting 1 feat per level plus your class feats. If you are a fighter, you get two bonus feats every time you'd have gotten one).
Skills:
* Background skills
* Skill unlocks -- everyone gets associated feat for free.
* Can use Kirthfinder OR normal version of a skill.
Traits: allowed.
Equipment:
* Just pick stuff that makes sense for the character.
* Automatic bonus progression, start at if 5th level character.
Defense:
* Wounds and Vigor, take max.
* Horror Adventures
We'll being using rules from this as well.
For your story, I need you to tell me who you were in the 1500s under the reign of Vlad the Impaler, and who are are in 1890s Transylvania.
Curiously, I have an old concept from a V:TM game Tzimisce... I'll see how to adapt it to be a Vampire Hunter. I'll also have a look at these Kirthfinder rules, first time I hear about them.
I guess I'm flexible on that point if that's keeping people away -- I really like what he did with the classes, but I can understand why it might be a hard sell to look at all that.
I've also thought about this some more, and have another idea -- what if some PCs are damned souls returned from Hell, and others are from Heaven -- that'd be kind of interesting. So, some would take a 1/2 Celestial template, and some a 1/2 Devil template.
Seb,
You always seem to open recruitments for these crazy awesome games.
Though I must admit, slightly bummed I can't be a vampire, lol.
Heard of the Kirthfinder rules, but I've never looked them over before. Will check them out.
Well, I'm trying to imagine how a vampire would fit into this -- the idea is Dracula is the historical Vlad the Impaler risen from the dead -- and that's the origin of vampirism. The vampire character would have to be one of his minions that broke free or something.
I already sort of had an idea that there would be flashbacks to the 1500s where all the characters would have interacted -- I guess you could be a vampire if you were a member of the Order of Dracul and served as a knight alongside Vlad in the wars against the Turks, and then broke free when he re-awoke, or something along those lines.
I'd encourage everyone to at least take a look at the Kirthfinder stuff before you make up your mind -- it's a really interesting take on the classes, sort of like the Talented-X series from Legendary Games where each base class has a ton of options at every level.
I'm playing a vampire hunter(the class) in a Ravenloft game I'm in, who became a vampire slowly over time via the Way of the Wicked vampire feats. His logic being to use their powers against them.
I wouldn't mind reprising and expanding that concept, especially with the use of gestalt and your other generous rules.
Well, let's see what kind of interest this gets -- I feel like there's not as much immediate interest as the werewolf one, though I think I may have to re-recruit for that one soon lol.
Ok, let's see:
What is your take on Saving Throws? The PF one or the KF one (4 saves with progression equal to 1/2 level and +2 to good saves)?
To my understanding, we're using Classes from KF, we are allowed to choose Feats, Skills and Spells from either PF or KF, and then the rest is PF (so no special rules from KF like max bonuses to rolls, etc). Am I right?
Edit: Also, we're not using Feat Tax Rules this time, right?
Edit: What happens with skills not appearing in PF, like Concentration, Endurance, etc? Should we totally ignore anything related to KF skills not appearing in PF? Will there be 2 sets of skills?
What is your take on Saving Throws? The PF one or the KF one (4 saves with progression equal to 1/2 level and +2 to good saves)?
Use KF saving throws -- anything that is in the 'Class Table' I want to try to keep.
To my understanding, we're using Classes from KF, we are allowed to choose Feats, Skills and Spells from either PF or KF, and then the rest is PF (so no special rules from KF like max bonuses to rolls, etc). Am I right?
That's correct
Edit: Also, we're not using Feat Tax Rules this time, right?
No, we're not -- the KF feat selection accomplishes most of this and scales, they'd be redundant.
Edit: What happens with skills not appearing in PF, like Concentration, Endurance, etc? Should we totally ignore anything related to KF skills not appearing in PF? Will there be 2 sets of skills?
There's a larger pool of skills that includes both KF and PF.
Okay, read over some of the classes for Kirthfinder, very awesome! I'm converted(for this game least :) lol)
One important question:
If we have a class feature that relies on something from Kirthfinder that we aren't using, what happens?
For example, at 4th level the Fighter gets Grit. One of the uses is to gain the effects of one Hero Point. While at 14th level, they get Unstoppable, with renders their actions immune to being interrupted by immediate or preemptive actions.
I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones that stuck out to me of the few classes I read.
I think we'll have to deal with it on a case by case basis -- we'll use something, like a combat rule, if it's necessary for an ability, but I don't want to totally revise combat if no one's using a 'talent' that requires that.
Curious,
Do we actually need to take Vampire Hunter as one of our classes? It's a solid class, to be sure, but I feel like it's not strictly necessary, especially with the the abundance of options we get via the Kirthfinder classes.
What if instead, we got a bonus feat at first level, that had to be a technique feat? Including the Vampire Hunter Tradition feat. Those who wish to be a more focused vampire hunter can take further technique feats with all of our bonus feats.
Obviously, thematically, we have to be vampire/undead hunters, but I feel that can be easily accomplished without requiring us to take levels in the Vampire Hunter class.
I'm open to it -- I think I need to rethink some of the rules ideas actually, it's a always a bit complicated to suss out exactly what I want to do.
I like the basic idea of a campaign split between 1500s flashbacks and the 1890s.
If we didn't use Vampire Hunter, would be just make it gestalt Kirthfinder classes then?
In that case, maybe we shouldn't try to mix the two so much, and just use the Kirthfinder rules as a base, and add PF feats and spells that don't overlap.
I need to look at some stuff and think about it.
Yeah, my suggestion would be just use Kirthfinder classes.
Even with standard PF classes but using gestalt, you can easily mimic a vampire hunter and I feel it's even easier with KF.
I'm just not sure vampire hunter adds enough interesting and unique class features to mandate us taken levels in it, since we're using KF classes instead of PF ones.
I don't know enough about the full system to say we should mostly use KF except where PF would be more beneficial.
However, it sesms possible we we may not need stamina feats if we just use the KF feats, but I think we might wanna keep background skills and unlocks. But, maybe not, if the KF skills are close enough or better.
Setting wise,
Is this basically Castlevania esque? Cuz hot damn that's a badass series.
Also, if you haven't done so already, I would strongly suggest checking out the free Ravenloft PF netbooks for inspiration, even if none of the rules are available to us PCs.(though you might want to allow some).
Finally, you mentioned 1/2 devil/celestial template above. Do we all automatically get them? Can we choose different templates, so long as there are thematically similar? Like the various blessed, bound, possessed(etc) templates from Advanced Bestiary?
I'm probably going to be scrapping the 'become a vampire to fight vampires' and instead go full on holy warrior.
Yeah, sort of, but it's split between the 1500s and 1890s -- there will be flashbacks to the 1500s that explain things happening in the present.
Yeah, I've looked at those before, I need to think about the rules honestly -- I'm not sure I have time to design NPCs with Kirtfinder rules, so I have to decide how this is all going to work.
I'm open to other templates as long as the basic idea of a reincarnated hero/anti-hero is still in place. Also, something like an immortal Jinn would be okay -- I was hoping someone might want to play a Janissary or something like that.
I honestly need to rethink the rules issues a bit -- I want to be able to use pre-generated stuff for making NPCs, and also not wall myself in as regards 3pp. materials, but it's a bit complicated working that out with the Kirthfinder stuff, I need to think about it some more -- the templates are one issue.
Well, I hope you stick with allowing us PCs to use Kirthfinder, as now that I looked it over some, I'm kinda hyped about using it.
Personally, for NPCs, friend or foe, I would just use whatever you want. KF, PF, 3pp, etc.
As I said in the Dark Sun game, I enjoy your games more for the RP/storytelling aspects than combat/mechanics. I mean sure, it's awesome being able to create some over the top, badass characters but for me, and I think many others, we sign up for your games because we like your stories and ideas more than anything else.
Yeah, my idea was having the KF ruleset for PCs, but different rules for NPCs.
Let's see if there's more interest and I'll work on hammering out the details.
I have a few friends, both IRL and on the boards I plan on asking. Also, I would suggest linking this recruitment in the discussion thread of the other games you GM for.
Sorry again.
Are the characters in 1500 and 1800 supposed to be the same, or are they a reincarnation/descendant?
Yeah -- it's like they lived in the 1500s, and then were reborn.
EDIT: I guess maybe it's an issue of terminology 'reincarnation' in the sense that it's the same spirit again - but the body is also similar. Their souls went to Heaven/Purgatory/Hell, and they were reborn into a basically similar body -- like how Dracula meets the reincarnation of Elizabeta and she looks the same etc.
I've always enjoyed gothic horror, and I think the dual setting across the two timelines is a unique and dynamic idea!
The Kirthfinder stuff is interesting and definitely gives more flexibility, but it seems like there are a lot of changes from core Pathfinder that could get complicated, both for PCs and you as the GM. Perhaps just straight Gestalt (pathfinder) with the 50 pts for abilities and the extra feats you proposed? And rather than Vampire Hunter for everyone, they must have an aspect of their character (one of their two classes) that fits the "undead hunter" theme (between the myriad of classes and archetypes, this allows almost anything but keeps it thematic)?
I would definitely like to see this concept come to fruition!
I'm gonna be honest, I'm actually rather excited to try Kirthfinder, and would be rather disappointed(though not so much that I would pass on the game) should we decide not to use that ruleset.
I know it's a new system and all, and it could be complicated, but I'm totally willing to give it a fair and full shot.
I'm still thinking about how this is going to work -- the issue is the interface of KF with PF. I always adopt a Starfinder model for NPCs and Monsters -- I don't build them exactly the same way as PCs, I just make numbers necessary for the PCs to interact with mechanically. I give monsters extra powers and feats etc. that aren't built the same as PCs.
Maybe what we can do is allow the KF suite as one option for the gestalt for those who want to go that direction, but it's not a requirement. It's more powerful than base PF, some there's some incentive to do so.
I need to look at combat rules and a few other things to see how KF and PF interface, and what the issues would be.
Just read over the bulk of the 'introduction' chapter for Kirthfinder. I like a lot of the changes, though there's a few I could do without(Like the level cap on spells. It's cool that you could possibly cast a single spell or handful of them better than every one else of your level or possibly even several levels).
I'll keep on reading over the next few days, and see if there's too much non compatible variance, but so far, it seems okay. Of course I haven't read any of the skills, feats, combat or casting sections, but as of right now, nothing appears too complex.
I really like the scaling feats, the customization of some of the classes like the Bard, and some other stuff, just a lot of neat features to play around with, all in all.
I think in the main it should be compatible -- my only questions are about combat and spells -- I know combat works a bit differently, and I remember being a bit perplexed about the bestiary entries, but nothing specific comes to mind, I'll have to check on it more when I have time.
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I think in the main it should be compatible -- my only questions are about combat and spells -- I know combat works a bit differently, and I remember being a bit perplexed about the bestiary entries, but nothing specific comes to mind, I'll have to check on it more when I have time.
Most of the KF rules were written so as to work well with each other, and not so much with standard PF. A lot of the KF class features, as pointed out upthread, won't really work with standard PF rules. That said, I'm glad people are at least looking at KF again. Happy gaming!
Seb, a suggestion: Let's keep using this thread to discuss the various rules, systems, character creation options, etc.
And then once we fully finalize everything, make a brand new recruitment thread. I would suggest including that's this is going to be Castlevania inspired in the title, to grab more interest(Assuming you're still using that for the setting).
Couple of questions I've thought about over the last few days and have forgotten to ask:
Are we definitely required to all be humans?
What's the ruling on templates? Do we get one without it affecting our level? If so, what's the CR allowed?
Will this game allow for things like building an army, or stronghold, or becoming a ruler of some sort?
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Will this game allow for things like building an army, or stronghold, or becoming a ruler of some sort?
(Which, again, are often hard-baked into KF as class features.)
Will this game allow for things like building an army, or stronghold, or becoming a ruler of some sort?(Which, again, are often hard-baked into KF as class features.)
Yeah, that's why I'm asking. I'm currently intending to play a fighter, and that Warlord class feature is totes awesome! :)
I'm actually super interested in playing Kirthfinder, especially if it's going to be Kirthfinder Gestalt.
I actually played a point-based Gestalt & Template game where I was able to get my GM to allow Kirthfinder Rogue. I gestalt'd it with a Mageknight from Spheres of Power. Boy, was that a treat!
Since somebody else is already planning on being a Fighter, and I've already played Rogue, I think I'll consider playing a spellcaster of some sort. I definitely want to try out some of the spell creation tools that Kirth has prepared.
That said, I really, really enjoyed playing a Kirthfinder Rogue, and certainly would not mind playing another one again.
Hell, if Spheres of Power stuff is allowed, I wouldn't mind just resurrecting my previous character and just playing him again, but I admit that the synergy between the two classes can be a little...strong. Especially with full access to both systems (Kirthfinder & Spheres).
I'm hoping the GM is still interested in running this. I know they are still active on here, so they haven't ditched entirely, but maybe they decided this was too much of a hassle to run. Which would make me really sad, as I was rather hyped to try out Kirthfinder.
I am still interested -- I agree with your idea that we need to suss out the rules more and I'll open a new recruitment thread at that point.
I think the best option is to go full Kirthfinder for all the PCs, and do whatever you want with the NPCs.
That said, I still haven't gotten the chance to read over the combat and spellcasting sections, so I don't know how complex or different from PF those changes are.
As always, your campaign concepts rock! I'll keep an eye out for the recruitment thread in due time... And in the meantime, I'll have a look at these rules.
Well hello, and look who is lining up for this one, the maga band of crazy PC makers. hehe
I;m loving this one, really liked the Kirthfinder rules, used for a supers game I played.
I would like to play an Incarnate again, an idea made into a being.
I love the idea of a mythic immortal soul with the ASPIRANCY INCARNATE
MYSTERIE, A Buddhist one who walks the earth understanding he is has lived many likes and has never reached enlightenment. He was a companion of Gautama Buddha himself.
He hunts vampires to set them free, so they can once more can enter the wheel of life.
ASPIRANCY
Some cultures believe divine ascension is
possible―that mortals can rise to take a seat beside
the gods themselves. This divine mystery is included
to model the favored soul from Complete Divine, the
mystic (Dragonlance campaign setting), and the
Aspirant variant cleric class (Dragon magazine, issue
311). It can also stand in for the Outer Rifts mystery,
from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea
Magic.
Ultimately, an Asprirancy incarnate can essentially
become a half-celestial, half-fiend, etc., but over 20
levels rather than eight (see Planetouched in
Appendix C of Chapter 2), and with the retention of
full divine spellcasting capability.
Class Skills: Add Athletics, Bluff, and Fly to your
list of class skills. Additionally, you gain automatic
Martial proficiency with your deity’s favored weapon (if
you do not have a deity, select one martial weapon).
Bonus Spells: An aspirant’s bonus spells
depends on the plane from which your powers are
drawn. For those embodying the power of the upper
or lower planes, the following lists are recommended;
other lists can be developed for other planes, subject
to player and referee agreement.
Celestial: 1 st —bless, 2 nd —daylight, 3 rd —remove
disease, 4 th —holy smite, 5 th —dispel evil or hallow,
6 th —heal, 7 th —resurrection, 8 th —holy aura,
9 th —summon monster IX (celestials only).
Thematic Spells: Spells with the appropriate
alignment descriptor, or named after a creature of an
appropriate plane (e.g., barghest’s feast for a fiendish
aspirant).
Planar Terrain: [upper]
You gain Favored Terrain (Upper
or Lower Planes, as appropriate to your aspirancy)
with a bonus equal to half your class level.
Revelations: An aspirant can select from the
following revelations.
Balefire (Su): [5d6]
You call upon the cleansing or
searing fires of the planes to burn your foes. One
target within 30 feet is wreathed in screaming flames
and takes 1d6 points of fire damage per class level
you possess. A successful Reflex save halves this
damage. At 9 th level, the fire’s howls cause any
creatures damaged by it to be staggered for 1 round.
At 17 th level, creatures who fail their saves against the
balefire are staggered for 1d4 rounds and stunned for
1 round. You can use this ability once per day plus
one additional time per day at 11 th and 19 th levels.
Telepathy (Su): You can mentally communicate
with any other creature within 100 feet that has a
language.
I also agree that going pure Kirthfinder is probably for the best, to prevent crazy unforeseen synergies. I'd also suggest not going for Gestalt or Mythic unless you're 100% sure you can handle it.
Regular Kirthfinder already gives characters a LOT to work with. Gestalt might make things a bit too crazy. Mythic is even crazier, and even more unbalanced than Gestalt is. Beware.
One more thing, Kirthfinder assumes a 15 point buy, IIRC. Increasing this by a substantial amount also greatly increases how powerful the classes are going to be, since Kirthfinder makes a lot of boosts readily available. This might be important to keep in mind.
I don't think the Power creep is going to present a problem, the GM is experienced in dealing with it and the campaigned is already supposed to be 'Crazy High Powered'. Constant corrections and rewinds due to bad interaction between two set of rules, on the other hand, is certainly a threat for me since it can erode everyone's will and joy.
Well, if Power creep isn't a problem, and the GM wants to run it with both Kirthfinder and Pathfinder Gestalt, then...I'd really love for another chance to play Jiro (my Mageknight / Kirthfinder Rogue) again.
The last game he was in may have had templates and s@@#, but there were a few things from Kirthfinder that I wasn't able to fully implement, like Hero Points. Playing Jiro without restrictions should be pretty cool.
Course, even without that stuff being allowed, I'm still down to play a whole host of Kirthfinder classes. Particularly interested in Archivist and Sorcerer at the moment, actually.
Well hello, and look who is lining up for this one, the maga band of crazy PC makers. hehe
I;m loving this one, really liked the Kirthfinder rules, used for a supers game I played.
I would like to play an Incarnate again, an idea made into a being.
I love the idea of a mythic immortal soul with the ASPIRANCY INCARNATE
MYSTERIE, A Buddhist one who walks the earth understanding he is has lived many likes and has never reached enlightenment. He was a companion of Gautama Buddha himself.He hunts vampires to set them free, so they can once more can enter the wheel of life.
** spoiler omitted **...
Usually I'm pretty open on character concepts, but this one's not really going to work with the campaign -- this is kind of a quasi-historical game using a broadly Abrahamic/Kabbalistic cosmology.
Buddhist cosmology isn't compatible with that (the universe having an origin/being timeless, other assumptions about the nature of the soul/self, the idea that the existing world is an illusory drape over a world mountain and surrounding continents).
There's no easy way to have a reincarnated arhant in the same universe as judeo-christian-islamic devils, demons, and jinn. The only explanation would have to be that each religion is serviced by alternate pocket-dimensions with their own versions of heaven, and hell, and with souls that function in different ways, and alternate supreme divine entities (the dharmakaya vs. the biblical creator deity), but that's no the direction I want to go with this setting -- I see it as monotheistic and based on kabbalistic and pseudepigraphical traditions about biblical history.
Well hello, and look who is lining up for this one, the maga band of crazy PC makers. hehe
I;m loving this one, really liked the Kirthfinder rules, used for a supers game I played.
I would like to play an Incarnate again, an idea made into a being.
I love the idea of a mythic immortal soul with the ASPIRANCY INCARNATE
MYSTERIE, A Buddhist one who walks the earth understanding he is has lived many likes and has never reached enlightenment. He was a companion of Gautama Buddha himself.He hunts vampires to set them free, so they can once more can enter the wheel of life.
** spoiler omitted **...
Usually I'm pretty open on character concepts, but this one's not really going to work with the campaign -- this is kind of a quasi-historical game using a broadly Abrahamic/Kabbalistic cosmology.
Buddhist cosmology isn't compatible with that (the universe having an origin/being timeless, other assumptions about the nature of the soul/self, the idea that the existing world is an illusory drape over a world mountain and surrounding continents).
There's no easy way to have a reincarnated arhant in the same universe as judeo-christian-islamic devils, demons, and jinn. The only explanation would have to be that each religion is serviced by alternate pocket-dimensions with their own versions of heaven, and hell, and with souls that function in different ways, and alternate supreme divine entities (the dharmakaya vs. the biblical creator deity), but that's no the direction I want to go with this setting -- I see it as monotheistic and based on kabbalistic and pseudepigraphical traditions about biblical history.
I'm not sure I understood anything you just said. Heh.
The basic point is that this isn't a great setting for Buddhist/Jain/Taoist/Shinto/Hindu/Sikh characters -- the cosmologies of those religions don't match that of Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
I'm basically going to be using a cosmology drawn from Jewish mysticism and apocryphal biblical books like Enoch.
The basic point is that this isn't a great setting for Buddhist/Jain/Taoist/Shinto/Hindu/Sikh characters -- the cosmologies of those religions don't match that of Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
Thich Nhat Hahn evidently disagrees. But then again, he takes such a broad view as for it to be nearly meaningless.
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Saw this pop up in the recent activity at the bottom of the page, and thought I'd give it a look. I'm not familiar with Kirthfinder, though I gave it a quick glance and it looks decent. I also don't typically play on this site (I came here for a game that was advertised on Roll20). However, I'll keep an eye on this to see how things get hashed out, and perhaps come up with something to apply to the game with.
The basic point is that this isn't a great setting for Buddhist/Jain/Taoist/Shinto/Hindu/Sikh characters -- the cosmologies of those religions don't match that of Judaism/Christianity/Islam.Thich Nhat Hahn evidently disagrees. But then again, he takes such a broad view as for it to be nearly meaningless.
Yes, I'm aware of ecumenical efforts like this.
I'm talking about details like the Mahayana view of the universe is that there's a cosmic mountain surrounded by continents on a flat surface, and our entire world exists on one of these continents called Jambudbvipa. We can't see it unless we're enlightened, and so we perceive the shape of our world as it is -- but that's the 'real' set up (or that would have to be the explanation in this setting with circumnavigation of the seas, I'm sure some pre-modern Buddhists did think this was an accurate description of the cosmos).
The three-bodied emanation of the cosmic Buddha also really can't coexist with monotheism -- both are filling the same space or niche in their respective cosmologies.
Usually this wouldn't be an issue, but I want to be able to use ideas like Lilith from Kabbalistic legendarium, and that idea is incompatible with a cosmology where the universe is recreated at different points, and the earlier stages of the world involve flying humans with long life spans, but fewer sensory organs. They just don't fit together.
Seb,
What other issues for this game need to decided upon? Is there anything I can do to help get the official recruitment up and running??
... interesting. Hm.
I personally would enjoy being able to play a reluctantly un-aging Janissary who, whether due to a curse, a command, or a sense of duty, was made / required / agreed to remain after Dracula's death 'in the event of his return' or some such -- one who at first spent the time alone literally watching over Dracula's coffin, but who (after 20 or 50 years) then went a-wandering to try to perfect his art (... okay, so I like the archer-monk) and checking in every decade or so. He might be the one who realizes that the reincarnations of his old compatriots are occurring, and who then begins to keep a watch upon them, wary/dreading their awakening, going back to Dracula's coffin to perhaps find the body (or the coffin entirely) no longer there, it having been spirited away by a new Renfield or clan of them -- and so he redoubles his watch and defense of his once-and-future-friends, so as to be ready when they awaken to their old memories.
I might need assistance with building with Kurthfinder / Gestalting, but ...
Did you finish reading over the rules -- I think the main issue is the interface of KF/PF/PF Mythic.
Do the numbers work so that we can have PCs built using KF and PF Mythic, and opponents built with PF and PF Mythic?
For instance, we can easily have PCs with more or less and different kinds of actions per round, as long as they don't need to interact with a number that the villains don't have, and vice versa.
They can throw different spells at each other, and use different spell casting rules, as long as the same applies -- there's the necessary number on the other side to interact with -- what is your impression so far?