Paladin: Retributive Strike should not be tied to alignment

[LuniasM]

To be fair, the inhabitants of Mendev (especially Kenabres) are pretty strong by most standards - strong enough to have an entire army of Level 4 Paladins at the disposal of a single city. They're probably not the best example of the class at low levels.

That said, I'm not opposed to seeing more offensive features on the Paladin - they just have to come at the expense of defensive features so that the class doesn't end up repeating the balance mistakes of the 1e Paladin.

[Rob Godfrey]

RazarTuk wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Rob Godfrey wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Rob Godfrey wrote:

Ediwir wrote:

I've seen a lot of people complaining about Liberator's narrow use of abilities because "grappling isn't gonna be frequent".

...Seriously people have you read the bestiary. Half of what's there will just grapple you without a save and then deal double damage next round. Liberator would be saving ass all day.

which would be great, if paladin had ever been a defensive idea.. They aren't.

They are now!

which would be ok as a subclass, not as the only option.

It's great as the only option!

Hard disagree. First, I already have a hard time imagining a Mendevian crusader thinking, "Okay, just need to wait for that demon to attack my ally, and I'll be able to lash back even stronger!"

But more importantly, I hope we can agree that one of the most paladin-y things you can do is holding off an enemy, while your companions flee, risking your life in the process. For example, acting like Gandalf did at the Bridge of Khazad-dûm. It's presumably how 2e found Defender as a role for paladins. But the irony is that in doing that, you lose access to one of your core class abilities, because it relies on having living allies fighting alongside you.

Exactly you stand on the bridge and I stand 15ft away and smack down the demons sounds far worse than 'flee you fools'

[Steelfiredragon]

which would be why having paladin classes that mimicked
celestials
namely archon, angels,agathions and azata.

though the azata, archon and angels would have been better to start with.

oh well though. next book maybe