Hi, I've been tinkering with some bull rush / overrun shenanigans using Siegebreaker and Bulette Style and I wound up encountering a few problems. Frankly, this thread could probably fall under either the purview of Advice or Rules Questions, but here goes:
1. Firstly, I'm pretty sure that even though the same action is dealing damage when you combine Siegebreaker's Breaker Rush and the Bulette Rampage feat these count as separate sources of damage, and so DR applies twice (once to Breaker Rush, and once to Bulette Rampage). Is this correct?
2. What are the best means for overcoming damage reduction with anything that relies on Bulette Rampage and Breaker Rush as primary sources of damage, or similar abilities that stack damage onto Bull Rush / Overrun? The only thing that immediately comes to mind is Paladin, which automatically overcomes the DR of evil creatures with Smite Evil but has no effect on non-evil creatures.
(Note: the crux of the issue is that combat maneuvers are NOT weapon attacks, so most things that overcome DR don't work in this case.)
3. In the event of using multiple Bull Rushes in the same round - say with the Knockback rage power and Quick Bull Rush - can you effectively bull rush + overrun the same target twice in the same round? And how far can you travel with Bull Rush when you use it twice? Can you even move twice with Bull Rush at all?
Thanks in advance for any help provided!
1. Both contribute bludgeoning damage to a single attack, so they shouldn't face separate DR.
2. Champion of the Faith Warpriest has Smite as well. Eh... Martial Artist Monk Study Weakness? Probably not.
For a build using lots of Combat Maneuvers, there's Arcane Discovery: Knowledge is Power. Only needs one level of of Wizard.
Okay, so #1 is good to know. #2... Yeah, I'm at a loss still, but it's less vital if I can stack the damage high enough.
The only issue with Knowledge is Power is it gives +1 CMB... which is what you get from 1 BAB, which you lose by going Wizard. However, I've been looking at several strong options for this character. Siegebreaker and Barbarian (Armored Hulk) are really good choices, and then I'm looking at taking the Furious Guardian PRC to get combat feats, Greater Rage, and Rage Powers. Early access to Greater Rage = always good.
Otherwise, I'm still searching for dip options, stuff to add more damage or boost strength. If I could somehow get Mutagen without dropping my BAB, that might be a good route.
Knowledge is Power is something to build around when starting out, rather than something to tack on to an existing character with insignificant INT. Start out with a Dual Talent Human with something like 17STR/17INT, put a point in INT at 8, and buy a headband +2; now Knowledge is Power is granting a +6 CMB bonus. Also take the Foresight Wizard School and you get 9/day uses of pre-reroll. It's a strong option, anyhow.
You might even be able to build some sort of Battle Wizard around a Siegebreaker core; there are huge support things you can do with spells, and some good PRCs for adding spells and combat.
The Living Monolith Prestige Class grants a pretty great ability for a combat maneuver oriented character.
Brawlers with the Dirty Fighting feat make amazing combat maneuver-focused characters. Brawlers get plenty of feats to make it all happen, and then you can use Martial Flexibility to pick whichever combat maneuver you want to excel at during that particular combat too. If you want to be really extra pushy-shovy with Bull Rush, dip a level in Barbarian around lvl 6-7 and pick up the Raging Throw feat and you're in business.
At level 8 with a 20 Str and 16 Con, you could have 8BAB + 5Str + 4Imp/Grt BullRush + 2Rage(Str) + 5RagingThrow(Con) + 2ManeuverTraining = +26 to CMB to BullRush, and increase that by an additional +4 if you're flanking. And that's +26 or +30CMB without any items.
All you need is:
Brawler7 / Barb1
Dirty Fighting
Imp/Grt BullRush
Raging Throw
If you get Vicious Stomp, you can really pile on the hurty-hurt with AoO's when you knock people prone with Trip and Overrun.
Quote: Knowledge is Power is something to build around when starting out, rather than something to tack on to an existing character with insignificant INT. Start out with a Dual Talent Human with something like 17STR/17INT, put a point in INT at 8, and buy a headband +2; now Knowledge is Power is granting a +6 CMB bonus. Also take the Foresight Wizard School and you get 9/day uses of pre-reroll. It's a strong option, anyhow.
You might even be able to build some sort of Battle Wizard around a Siegebreaker core; there are huge support things you can do with spells, and some good PRCs for adding spells and combat.
The Living Monolith Prestige Class grants a pretty great ability for a combat maneuver oriented character.
The thing is, I'm not having terrible trouble with accuracy right now, and the character concept I have has already been passed over to the DM, and it uses Barb/Siegebreaker as its base.
What I'm looking for isn't more CMB, but ways of boosting my actual damage at present, dips or the like that might reinforce my preexisting build.
Quote: Brawlers with the Dirty Fighting feat make amazing combat maneuver-focused characters. Brawlers get plenty of feats to make it all happen, and then you can use Martial Flexibility to pick whichever combat maneuver you want to excel at during that particular combat too. If you want to be really extra pushy-shovy with Bull Rush, dip a level in Barbarian around lvl 6-7 and pick up the Raging Throw feat and you're in business.
At level 8 with a 20 Str and 16 Con, you could have 8BAB + 5Str + 4Imp/Grt BullRush + 2Rage(Str) + 5RagingThrow(Con) + 2ManeuverTraining = +26 to CMB to BullRush, and increase that by an additional +4 if you're flanking. And that's +26 or +30CMB without any items.
All you need is:
Brawler7 / Barb1
Dirty Fighting
Imp/Grt BullRush
Raging Throw
If you get Vicious Stomp, you can really pile on the hurty-hurt with AoO's when you knock people prone with Trip and Overrun.
The Raging Throw route definitely looks like the angle I need. It gives more damage, is an easy investment for the stuff I already have. 7 Brawler levels... Brawler is one of the classes I've been debating taking, so that's worth considering.
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So, notably, my DM is using the Elephant in the Room feat tax removal, which clears up Power Attack and Combat Expertise already. He also allowed us to use Major Drawbacks, which gives me one more feat. My build at present has the following:
Rogue 2 (Scout)
Fighter 2 (Siegebreaker)
Barbarian 2 (Armored Hulk)
Due to the nature of our character generation and my wanting to be a dwarf, my character's strength is a bit lower than your suggestion, @Ryze. My defenses are really, really solid, though. My dwarf right now has:
+12 CMB Bull Rush (+14 raging), STR+3 damage - +2 more if flanking, +2 more if charging
+17 CMB Overrun (+19 Raging), 1d8+(3.5*STR)+8 damage - +2 more if flanking
He can bull rush and overrun multiple opponents in a single round. He has the following feats:
Bulette Charge Style (level 1)
Powerful Maneuvers (Drawback) - this basically acts as both Imp. Bull Rush and Overrun
Bulette Leap Style (Level 3)
Bulette Rampage (Rogue Talent)
Spiked Destroyer (Level 5)
And I have the Overbearing Advance rage power. I have 13 rage rounds a day.
My next goal is Rogue 4 (for an additional Spiked Armor attack on a charge, which is how I'll be bull rushing people), Fighter 3 (for Armored Training, which lets me get Poised Bearing and Imposing Bearing later to tackle EVERYTHING when enlarged). Now, however, I realize I DEFINITELY need Raging Throw, which will make use of my 13 rage rounds and really bring the hurt on. Assuming no magical items, that would boost my CMB by +4 outside a rage and +6 inside a rage. So, that'll be my first feat pick at level 7... And the bonus damage it can deal honestly sounds amazing.
Beyond that, I definitely need Greater Bull Rush to make this build shine later, and I could always swap out Spiked Destroyer if the DM permits.
There is, however, one HUGE problem with a Flanking Bull Rush:
Combat Rules wrote: If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. Meaning that if you're flanking a Medium sized creature and you bull rush it, you're bull rushing it into an ally. That means you're bull rushing your ally. You might see how this could be unwise.
Nevertheless, with Raging Throw at level 7, by level 8 I should be able to do:
STR+3 (Bull Rush)
STR+CON to potentially multiple creatures (Raging Throw)
1d8+(3.5*STR)+8 (Overrun)
If I keep the Rogue levels and take 2 more, I can also on a charge be dealing 3d6+STR, which isn't too shabby, but I start hitting Damage Reduction problems. Thus, swapping the rogue levels for brawler levels is tempting to say the least.
Overall, feats I definitely need to take seem to be: Raging Throw, Greater Bull Rush, Combat Style Mastery, Poised Bearing, and Imposing Bearing. Quick Bull Rush might be fun if I can pair it with the Knockback rage power.
You can Bull Rush while Flanking without hitting your Ally. You just have to work with your ally and let him know what you're planning to do and position yourselves 1 square away from where you're going to be bullrushing the target. You don't have to be perfectly on the other side of the creature in order to flank, you can be slightly askew but still on either side.
If you are Y and your ally is X, and the creature is 0:
Don't set it up like this:
X<-0<-Y <--- Bull Rush
Because yeah, you will hit your ally like this.
Set it up like this where your Ally is on his opposite corner:
X
<--0<-Y <--- Bull Rush
That's still flanking, and you can bull rush without harming your ally. This is obviously much easier to set up with Large/Huge targets rather than Medium sized ones, but it's still doable.
Flanking wrote: Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Dirty Fighting is a great feat to get for a Brawler regardless though. It satisfies the prerequisites for a lot of feats that you might want to plug in with Martial Flexibility.
Quote: Don't set it up like this:
X<-0<-Y <--- Bull Rush
Because yeah, you will hit your ally like this.
Set it up like this where your Ally is on his opposite corner:
X
<--0<-Y <--- Bull Rush
That only works with large or larger creatures. With medium sized creatures you do, in fact, have to be perfectly opposite.
Quote: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.
Click me for image to accompany quote
Quote: #1: The fighter and the cleric are flanking the ogre because they can draw a line to each other that passes through opposite sides of the ogre. Both the fighter and the cleric receive a +2 bonus on attack rolls made against the ogre.
#2: The rogue is not flanking the ogre because she cannot draw a line to the fighter or the cleric that passes through opposite sides of the ogre. The rogue cannot draw a line to the sorcerer because the sorcerer is not adjacent to the ogre and does not threaten it.
#3: The goblin and the ogre flank the sorcerer, as they can draw a line between them that passes through opposite sides of the sorcerer‘s square. If the ogre didn’t have reach to the sorcerer, though, he and the goblin would not be flanking her.
Basically, in your example, the line between X and Y does NOT pass through opposite sides, period. They don't flank. The only way to get a flanking bonus against a medium creature is to be on completely opposite sides of the creature, which means bull rushing your own ally.
Trust me, I have studied the Pathfinder art of shoving people around.
Either way, due to the houserules in place I don't really need Dirty Fighting. I don't have the DEX 13 or Imp. Unarmed Strike, but Vicious Stomp isn't the route I'm going. Raging Throw does the trick, and then I'll need Greater Bull Rush and a few other choice feats, but my damage is not coming from unarmed strikes. It's coming from being a living bowling ball.
You're going to be Large sized because of Enlarge Person. You can flank a medium creature even with your medium ally on the corner. You have to draw the imaginary line to YOUR center as well as your ally's center.
And you can make multiple Bull Rushes in the same round and you can travel with them, but only as long as you have the available movement necessary to move with them. So if you have 30 ft movement speed, and you bull rush for 15ft, and then bull rush again for 20ft, you can only actually move 30ft.
If you want to get crazy with the multiple bull rushes per round, I'd seriously recommend getting Dirty Fighting, Imp/Grt Trip, Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp, Ki Throw, Pummeling Style/Charge, Power Attack, Imp/Grt Bull Rush, Spinning Throw, Improved Overrun, Charge Through, and for items, get a Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists, Pauldrons of the Bull (roll BR twice and take better), and Giant Fist Gauntlets (Free BR attempt as a free action every time you hit with an Unarmed or Natural Attack for 20 rounds per day), and then get ANYTHING that can give you Haste (Boots of Speed are probably best) because it gives you additional movement and an extra attack when you make a Full Attack. And you should always keep a healthy stock of Enlarge Person potions, because your unarmed strike dmg goes up, you threaten a larger area, and you can Bull Rush Huge targets.
You should be able to have all that by level 12-13ish, and you can use MF to plug in anything you don't have.
Anywho, here's what it looks like (and being generous, assume all this hits and no misses):
1 round Attack Breakdown:
Pummeling Charge -> Flurry (Free Action Overrun while Charging with Charge Through)
1st Flurry Attack: Greater Trip
AoO Vicious Stomp
AoO Greater Trip (and AoO from Allies)
AoO Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists
Spinning Throw as Swift and reposition (Grt Bull Rush provokes AoO from allies again)
Flurry Attack (+Bull Rush) (Grt Bull Rush provokes AoO from allies again)
Flurry Attack (+BR) (Grt Bull Rush provokes AoO from allies again)
Flurry Attack (+BR) (Grt Bull Rush provokes AoO from allies again)
Flurry Attack (+BR) (Grt Bull Rush provokes AoO from allies again)
(If you have Haste active, you get one more attack and BR and another AoO from Allies)
And if the target tries to get back up on his turn, that's another AoO from everybody who threatens.
Next round, charge someone else and do it all over again :P
So that's:
3 AoO's from you
5 Bull Rush Attempts from you
4 Attacks from you
6 AoO provokes from allies who threaten (if they're within range while you're tripping/throwing/shoving this guy around)
This is how you do Bull Rush :P Do all your Bull Rushing with the Free/Swift actions after the Trips and Flurry hits.
You really only need 2 levels of Siegebreaker, 1 level of Armored Hulk Barb (and get Raging Throw), and then go all Brawler after that.
You really want 3 levels of Siegebreaker if possible because you want Poised Bearing and Imposing Bearing, actually. You need Armor Training for those. If you don't take those, you'll eventually fight creatures too big to fight, and if something is too big you can't use your combo at all.
See, Bull Rush and Overrun only work on creatures 1 size category larger than you. So if you Enlarge Person, you can affect Huge. But to affect Colossal, you need Poised Bearing + Enlarge. For Gargantuan? Poised AND Imposing Bearing + Enlarge. Otherwise, those creatures are literally immune to your abilities.
Now, you can space out the times at which you grab these feats. Poised Bearing + Enlarge covers most of your needs, and you could theoretically just use Martial Flexibility (if brawler) to get Imposing Bearing. But still, it's good to have the first one if possible. (And note, even if you don't want to take them as feats but use Martial Flexibility to grab them, you still need 3 levels of Siege Breaker for Armor Training.)
And the other thing is the Bulette Style line of feats lets you affect multiple foes with Overrun as well, so you effectively can act as a sort of moving lightning bolt vs. a "Punch one guy really hard" guy. It's very different from your build, but functions in a highly comparable way.
Still, I like your build, and that may be the route I go with my next martial build. But for this one, I'm quite frankly just looking for things that supplement the current choices I already made in a discussion with the GM: the Bulette Style stuff. Raging Throw and Charge Through look like they'll do the trick (as you can Charge Through one creature in front of your target as part of the Bull Rush, THEN successfully Bull Rush and Overrun again).
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One thing I am confused about, though: how are you Bull Rushing the opponent 5 times in one round as part of your Flurry? EDIT: Ah, the gauntlets. But doesn't the enemy go flying once Bull Rush succeeds, so they're out of range? This seems a bit odd.
Quote: You're going to be Large sized because of Enlarge Person. You can flank a medium creature even with your medium ally on the corner. You have to draw the imaginary line to YOUR center as well as your ally's center. Except you still can't choose where you Bull Rush the enemy to WITHOUT a feat or ability that explicitly says you can. This means you sometimes will only be able to Bull Rush into your ally if you're flanking, especially if you're charging (which is how you're doing things if you're using Pummeling Charge). Here's some examples to eyeball:
X = Ally, Y = You, O = Enemy
X____YY
_O___YY
In the above example, no matter where you stand you're not flanking the creature, because no part of you is actually in flanking position with your ally when you connect.
X______
_O___YY
_____YY
In this scenario, you're in flanking position when you connect, and you can, indeed, hit your opponent away from you and NOT into your ally. This one checks out.
_____YY
XO___YY
In this case, however, your charge would leave you with only one option: bulldoze this guy into your ally, because you charged from that direction.
_______
XO_____
_______
_____YY
_____YY
In this example, you're charging diagonally at the enemy. You are not flanking, however, and thus don't get a flanking bonus.
X______
_O_____
_______
_____YY
_____YY
Now you DO get a flanking bonus, but your ally is going to get smacked by the enemy.
This is why flanking and bull rushing don't generally work out, especially when charges are concerned. Now, if you're able to have Enlarge Person open each fight, you CAN avoid this problem by just walking into position and THEN Bull Rushing the enemy (as compared to Charging). This lets you more easily throw the enemy around. However, remember that according to the Core Rulebook and PFSRD...
Quote: A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. So you can't really pick and choose the direction. It has to be STRAIGHT back from whatever direction you're pushing. So, charges muck things up a bit to say the least. To me, this means that in order to diagonally shove a creature you must should have an angle like this:
O__
_YY
_YY
And that you can't push diagonally from:
OYY
_YY
As "straight back" in this case is pretty clearly not diagonal.
Unless there's an FAQ on this that says otherwise, I think this holds true.
Again, given my understanding of the rules, I don't believe you can safely Bull Rush and Flank in most situations, especially when you factor charges in.
TheVillageIdiot wrote: One thing I am confused about, though: how are you Bull Rushing the opponent 5 times in one round as part of your Flurry? EDIT: Ah, the gauntlets. But doesn't the enemy go flying once Bull Rush succeeds, so they're out of range? This seems a bit odd. Yeah, even if your Bull Rush succeeds by 20 points, you can opt to only bull rush him 5ft-- you don't have to shove him the full 25ft if you don't want to. I do the multiple shoves and push him through my allies' threatened spaces in 5ft increments and provoke as many AoO's as possible. Also, with Haste, I get 30ft bonus, so that's a lot of extra movement to Bull Rush with.
TheVillageIdiot wrote: This is why flanking and bull rushing don't generally work out, especially when charges are concerned. Now, if you're able to have Enlarge Person open each fight, you CAN avoid this problem by just walking into position and THEN Bull Rushing the enemy (as compared to Charging). This lets you more easily throw the enemy around. However, remember that according to the Core Rulebook and PFSRD... Yeah, it's not ideal, but it's doable. That's why I like to set up the Bullrushing via greater trips and flurry hits rather than Charge and Bull Rush first (although this is still an option if I want). If a baddie is on my cleric or wizard, I can charge over there, trip him FIRST, get a bunch of AoO's on the way down, then reposition and Bullrush him with Swinging Throw/Ki Throw (which proc's off the successful Trip), and then use the rest of my Flurry hits to bull rush him wherever I want after that. This way also ensures that I'm doing quite a bit of damage in the process too-- between all the AoO's and flurry hits and Raging Throw Bull Rushes, it's respectably decent dmg and tons of combat control, and my allies get tons of AoO potential too.
Basically, it looks like this. C is cleric, X is ally, O is enemy, Y is me.
First, I Pummeling Charge over there to save my Cleric.
C O <---chiiiyaaaaarge!----- Y
.................X
Then, I use Greater Trip in place of my first flurry attack, and get 3 AoO's on the way down. And the Cleric gets an AoO from Greater Trip.
C O Y
.................X
Now that the enemy is tripped, I can use a Swift to use Spinning Throw to reposition him via a Bull Rush attempt (here, I've chosen to reposition him directly behind me and away from the Cleric).
C.....Y..O
.................X
Then I finish my Flurry attacks, only moving him 5 or 10 feet (even if I succeed by 20 and could have moved him 25ft, I choose to only move him 5 or 10ft so I don't drain all my own movement-- this is also why Haste is important, more movement per round). Here, I push my enemy past my other ally, hopefully provoking 2-3 AoO's from my ally as we go by.
C..................Y..O
.................X
Also, at any point in time, you can use the Siegebreaker2 ability to do a free overrun whenever you successfully Bull Rush. Elephant Stomp is a great way to pile on damage and it only consumes your Immediate Action. Elephant Stomp would work pretty well with your Bulette style as well :)
Quote: Yeah, even if your Bull Rush succeeds by 20 points, you can opt to only bull rush him 5ft-- you don't have to shove him the full 25ft if you don't want to. I do the multiple shoves and push him through my allies' threatened spaces in 5ft increments and provoke as many AoO's as possible. Also, with Haste, I get 30ft bonus, so that's a lot of extra movement to Bull Rush with. This is REALLY important info for me. Hey, thanks!
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Np :) Glad to help :)
I know you're in the middle of your campaign right now, but if you ever want to try this build, here it is:
Human 25pt buy
Str 18 (16+2) Pump Strength every 4lvls
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10
Traits:
Bred for War: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks and a +1 trait bonus on your CMB because of your great size. You must be at least 6 feet tall.
Snowstrider: You gain a +1 trait bonus on Acrobatics checks made on slippery surfaces and enables you to trip or bull rush opponents two size categories larger than you instead of just one.
Brawler1: Improved Trip, Dirty Fighting
Brawler2: Combat Reflexes
Brawler3: Vicious Stomp, MT: Trip +1 (get a Fortuitous AoMF asap)
Brawler4: None
Brawler5: Ki Throw, Pummeling Style
Brawler6: None
Brawler7: Greater Trip, MT: Trip+2, BR+1
Brawler8: Pummeling Charge (Add Cruel enchant to AoMF)
Barbarian9: Improved Bull Rush
Siegebreaker10: None
Siegebreaker11: Greater Bull Rush (Get Giant Fist Gauntlets and Pauldrons of the Bull by this level)
Brawler12: None
Brawler13: Power Attack
Brawler14: Raging Throw, MT: Trip+3, Br+2, Overrun+1
Brawler15: Spinning Throw
You're going to have to spend your MF on Power Attack whenever you want extra dps early on, but your primary form of dmg early game is to trip the target and Vicious Stomp+Fortuitous for 2 AoO's, and then finish your flurry. The Bull Rush Shenanigans don't get good until you have Pummeling Charge, Siegebreaker2, and all the $$ for items, so that's why I got it late.
Cruel enchant gives you 5 temp HP every time you kill someone, and if you want to Debuff, use MF to get PowerAttack/Cornugon Smash for the Shaken/Sicken Combo -4att, -4Saves, -4skills, -4Abilchecks, -2dmg.
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