I've seen many threads where people asked some of these questions, but I wanted to verify that I had all of my ducks in a row.
Here is the character in question:
Human (Military Tradition race trait)
Monk (Maneuver Master) 1/Fighter (Gloomblade) 7
Stats (including stat boosters)
Str 22 +6
Dex 15 +2
Con 12 +1
Int 11 +0
Wis 16 +3
Cha 10 +0
BAB +7
CMB +13
Level) Feat
1) EWP (harpoon) (from Military Tradition)
1) EWP (net) (from Military Tradition)
1) Improved Grapple (from Monk)
1) Improved Unarmed Strike (from Monk)
1) Stunning Fist (from Monk)
You accept a creed to guide your destiny toward good.
Prerequisites: You must be good.
Benefit: Select one of the following virtues. You must adhere to that virtue’s creed in order to benefit from its bonus. If you break any part of the creed, you are unable to gain the benefits from that virtue for 24 hours. Significant violations require atonement for you to be able to benefit from this feat again.
Mercy
Creed: You must always accept an enemy’s surrender. When your enemies are defeated in battle, you must attempt to stabilize them to the best of your ability. You must never bring undue suffering to those who are innocent.
Benefit: When using a weapon that deals lethal damage to instead deal nonlethal damage, you take no penalty on your attack roll.
You have trained to use the net as a melee weapon.
Prerequisites: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can treat a net as a one-handed melee reach weapon with a 10-foot reach. Further, you take no penalty on melee attack rolls for using an unfolded net, and you can use one full-round action or two move actions to fold a net.
Your skill with lighter weapons allows you to wield one alongside your net.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Net Adept, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: You can treat a net as a one-handed ranged weapon, allowing you to wield a light or one-handed melee weapon and still make ranged attacks with your net. When you use your light or one-handed melee weapon to attack an entangled opponent, you gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls and on attack rolls to confirm a critical hit.
3) Two-Weapon Fighting
Choose one piece of equipment, such as boots, cloak, heavy blade scabbard, rope, or shield. You understand how to use that item in combat.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can use any equipment tricks relating to the item if you meet the appropriate trick requirements. If the item would normally be considered an improvised weapon, you can treat it as either a normal weapon or an improvised weapon, whichever is more beneficial for you.
Net Tricks
In addition to the feat or skill prerequisites (listed in parentheses) for each of the following tricks, you must have the appropriate Equipment Trick feat.
To use any of these equipment tricks, you must be proficient with nets.
Grappling Net (Improved Grapple): When you attempt a grapple combat maneuver check against a foe entangled by a net whose trailing rope you control, you do not take a penalty on the grapple combat maneuver check for not having two hands free, and you gain a +4 bonus on the check. If you successfully pin the target while it is still entangled by the net, you can use the net to tie up the target as a swift action.
Sometimes the only way to deal with those who see your illicit activities is to get rid of them.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When using a 1-handed, light, or natural weapon, you can deliver a coup de grace to an unconscious, bound, or pinned target (though not other kinds of helpless targets) as a standard action.
Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.
You can catch your opponents on your weapon and hold them in place.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Strength 13, Base Attack Bonus +7.
Benefit: Whenever you damage an opponent with a piercing weapon, you can immediately make a grapple check; success means the opponent is impaled on your weapon and you both gain the grappled condition. While the opponent is impaled, as an attack action you may make a grapple check on your turn at a –4 penalty to damage the opponent with your weapon, even if your weapon cannot normally be used in a grapple.
Relevant class abilities:
At 7th level, a gloomblade can create (and maintain) two shadow weapons at a time as a move action; if he does, each weapon has an enhancement bonus 1 lower than normal. If a gloomblade creates only one weapon, it gains a weapon special ability of his choice (chosen upon creation); the ability must be valid for the shadow weapon’s weapon type and must be chosen from defending, flaming, frost, keen, ghost touch, merciful, shock, thundering, or vicious. (Additional special abilities might qualify, at the GM’s discretion.)
Gear that matters:
Glove of Storing
Harpoon +1 (kept in glove)
Here's the scenario I'm imagining:
To set the stage, the character is 10' away from his target.
Before combat: Gloom Net +1 & Trident +1
1st round: Full Attack + Maneuver
Gloom Net (melee reach, +11 touch)
If hits, target is entangled
5' step toward target
If target is entangled: Gloom trident (+11; target has -4 to dex)
If hits and target is entangled: 1d8+10
and Grapple +21 (from Hamatula Strike)
If first trident missed and target is entangled: Gloom trident (+6; target has -4 to dex)
and Grapple +21 (from Hamatula Strike)
If target is grappled, flurry Grapple +25 (from Flurry of Maneuvers) to maintain and pin
If pinned, swift action to tie up with net (from Equipment Trick)
Second round
If target hasn't escaped and/or surrendered, free action to pull out harpoon from glove of storing, full round action to coup-de-grace with nonlethal damage
Questions where I'm unsure:
1) Flurry of Maneuvers: There has been a disagreement between my interpretation and the interpretation of another player in our group. He believes that ONLY the monk level is used (plus strength/improved grapple/etc.) for the flurried maneuver, not the monk level + BAB from other classes. I think it works like the Flurry of Blows FAQ.
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
2) Hamatula Strike: After you grapple with a piercing weapon, can the flurry maneuver then be used to pin?
If so, do you have to let go of the weapon and use your hands or are you still grappling with the weapon (and thus getting any associated weapon bonuses)? For the record, I assumed that I don't get the weapon and shadow weapon training bonuses in the example above.
3) Throat Slicer: In the above example, the character was built with the idea that he came from a fishing background (and thus his weapon choices), but if I were to replace the harpoon (a two-handed weapon wielded in two hands) with a heavy pick (a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands), can the Throat Slicer feat be used? Essentially, the weapon is a one-handed weapon, but from what I've seen in other posts it being wielded in two hands doesn't change that fact. Throat Slicer just says that the weapon has to be one-handed (or light or a natural weapon), not that a hand is free while using it.
4) Iterative attack: I assumed that once the grapple was successful, the iterative attacks stopped, but I'm not sure about that. If using Hamatula Strike to grapple with a piercing weapon, and the first attack and grapple are both successes, do I lose any subsequent attacks? It refers to using an attack action to roll a grapple check (at -4) to deal weapon damage, but I believe that's similar to Vital Strike where you can do that on an attack action, but not as part of an iterative sequence.
5) Virtuous Creed (Mercy): The character was built with this feat to make him more palatable to the GM for the game he will be running (i.e., targets aren't killed if at all possible), but the combo of other feats (Hamatula Strike and Throat Slicer) almost seem like they contradict that, even tho there isn't anything that I've seen that says you can't impale and coup-de-grace with nonlethal damage. Is that true or am I missing something?
6) Net Adept: I made the assumption that the fact that the feat says the net is a 10' melee reach weapon means that it can't be used to attack an adjacent enemy. In that case I'd throw the net (as per Net & Trident) and provoke an AoO, but I'd much rather use it as a melee weapon. Has there been anything official on whether it can be used against adjacent? Is there any way (barring mythic) where it can be thrown without provoking? I thought that Sword and Pistol might do it, but that specifies pistol or crossbow.
Any corrections and questions would be appreciated. The only way I think I'll be able to convince my fellow player of my viewpoint on Flurry of Maneuvers is with a developer's response, but if my GM has questions he has accepted consensus before (or at least a reasonable argument). If there are any rules I'm missing, or where my logic is flawed, I'd like to know that too.
Thank you in advance!
bump :D
Okay, wow. That's the most intimidating wall of text I've seen here.
You are correct. I remember I also interpreted it as the other player at first, but you would add your Fighter BAB to the flurry. The Flurry FAQ should be proof enough.
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2) Hamatula Strike:
The feat is very complicated, and I'm not even sure what it actually allows you to do.
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3) Throat Slicer:
Yup, it's only the classification of the weapon that matters. So a Heavy Pick held in two hands works.
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4) Iterative attack:
I'd say you lose any attacks that were dependent on the 'arm' you're using to grapple, and you'll also lose any attacks that were dependent on having two arms. So if you have TWF, ITWF and GTWF while grappling on your first primary attack, you'd lose all of your attacks.
If you instead grappled on your first off-hand attack, you'd lose the attacks from ITWF and GTWF, while still having the iteratives attacks from high BAB on your primary hand.
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5) Virtuous Creed (Mercy):
Well, there's nothing saying you have to do lethal damage to Coup de Grace, so that should fly. But that doesn't change the fact that the opponent must make a fortitude save or die.
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6) Net Adept:
It's either a reach weapon or a thrown weapon, so you'd provoke if you want to hit an adjacent foe.
You could take Close-Quarters Thrower, but that would require Dodge and Weapon Focus
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Any corrections and questions would be appreciated.
There's some problems with your attack routine, unfortunately.
1. Attacks are always made at highest BAB to lowest.
2. While two-weapon fighting, you have to designate one weapon as the primary and one as the off-hand. Any extra attacks you gain from TWF feats must be done with the off-hand, and all other attacks are made with the primary hand.
3. You also have to start with the primary hand attack while Two-Weapon Fighting.
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This means that your attack routine (+7 BAB) is either:
+3 Net / +3 Trident / -2 Net
or
+3 Trident / +3 Net / -2 Trident
This means that you can't Net-Trident-Trident, as you are two-weapon fighting.
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There's also the problem of your maneuver, and when you're supposed to make it. If we follow the rule of highest BAB to Lowest, then your attack routine looks like this.
+6 Grapple / +3 Net / +3 Trident / -2 Net
or
+6 Grapple / +3 Trident / +3 Net / -2 Trident
(Since the Grapple attempt has +8 BAB)
I'm almost certain that you'd have to start the full-round action with your grapple from the Flurry of Maneuvers.
It never occurred to me that you had to designate primary if the penalties were the same (i.e., -4 to each) but that makes sense. In fact, since you get half strength with your off-hand, you would need to know which damage roll was effected (and since the net deals no damage, it matters). I'll have to keep that in mind, thanks!
As far as the flurry of maneuvers manevuer needing to go first, due to the size of the bonus, that is surprising, but understandable. I'll have to reconsider that portion since it will make a big difference on how this character works.
I thought about Close Quarters Thrower, but the character as imagined is not specific to any weapon, just general fishing weapons (net, trident, and harpoon, mostly). Weapon Focus just doesn't feel right to the theme. If I could take Weapon Focus (net) then apply it to all Thrown weapons (or all shadow weapons) through Advanced Weapon Training, that may work, but I'm still not quite certain if Gloomblade can take the Advanced Weapon Training feat (since despite having Weapon Training they don't pick a group). Thanks for the suggestion, tho.
As far as primary before off-hand, is that written somewhere or is that just general knowledge? I have seen the example saying that you have to go in order of BAB (from highest to lowest), but I've never seen anything in the rule books about primary before off-hand. There is a FAQ that _seems_ to suggest that you have to do ALL of your primary attacks first (link) but that bit about "primary longsword +6, primary longsword +1, off hand mace +6" might be meaning order, but, on the other hand, could be the case.
Okay, so say I choose net as my primary because I want to use it first. I swing it as a melee reach weapon, entangle, 5' step, poke with trident (at half strength mod), impale with Hamatula, then sequence ends. Next round I move to maintain trident grapple and pin, tie up as a swift with net, standard for throat slicer with trident...?
OR
Grapple check as part of flurry of maneuvers...then...uh...wait...can I do anything? In looking at the chart on d20pfsrd and searching the forums, I've come to the conclusion that I'm more confused now than Iwas before on this bit. I assumed that you could put the maneuver anywhere in the sequence, but the class doesn't say that (at least not on d20pfsrd) and, by the logic of going in order of decreasing BAB, it would need to be first. If the grapple is successful, I see no rules on what I can then do going forward in the attack sequence. Assuming I could still attack with a one-handed weapon, I would not be able to use a net (since it is reach) and I'd have to use the trident. I'm almost thinking that I'd get no benefit from Flurry of Maneuvers with either scenario.
Thank you again for your input and I'm sorry for the wall of text. I've been thinking alot about this character and I wanted to make sure I put down all of my thoughts. :)
As far as primary before off-hand, is that written somewhere or is that just general knowledge? I have seen the example saying that you have to go in order of BAB (from highest to lowest), but I've never seen anything in the rule books about primary before off-hand. There is a FAQ that _seems_ to suggest that you have to do ALL of your primary attacks first (link) but that bit about "primary longsword +6, primary longsword +1, off hand mace +6" might be meaning order, but, on the other hand, could be the case.
Yeah, that's the correct FAQ, and apparently I've mistakenly been playing with a houserule for far too long. +6 / +1 / +6 seems to be the right order, with the primary hand attacks going first.
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Okay, so say I choose net as my primary because I want to use it first. I swing it as a melee reach weapon, entangle, 5' step, poke with trident (at half strength mod), impale with Hamatula, then sequence ends. Next round I move to maintain trident grapple and pin, tie up as a swift with net, standard for throat slicer with trident...?
OR
Grapple check as part of flurry of maneuvers...then...uh...wait...can I do anything? In looking at the chart on d20pfsrd and searching the forums, I've come to the conclusion that I'm more confused now than Iwas before on this bit. I assumed that you could put the maneuver anywhere in the sequence, but the class doesn't say that (at least not on d20pfsrd) and, by the logic of going in order of decreasing BAB, it would need to be first. If the grapple is successful, I see no rules on what I can then do going forward in the attack sequence. Assuming I could still attack with a one-handed weapon, I would not be able to use a net (since it is reach) and I'd have to use the trident. I'm almost thinking that I'd get no benefit from Flurry of Maneuvers with either scenario.
You and me both, pal.
But since the rule of decreasing BAB is superseded by the rules of TWF, then we can set a precedent that the order of 'independent/extra' attacks are calculated separately from your BAB-iterative attacks.
Which means that you could probably place that Grapple maneuver in any of the places with a 'G' in your attack order.
G / Primary / Primary-5 / G / Off-Hand / G