So, my suggestion would be to go with the Greco-Roman Balic idea -- my idea for the noble woman and her daughter is that they flee not just because they are suspected of using magic, but implicated in a dangerous breeding operation of anti-magic and psionic beetles that employs dangerous defling rituals. This was part of a conspiracy to overthow Adrophinus the Dictator of Balic.
Adir isn't a particularly Greco-Roman name, are you set on it?
Balic in the source material is depicted as an essentially Greek city-state, with some Republican Roman elements as well.
My addition to this is that there will be three ethnic groups:
(1) The Tarkhuntas/Taquans are equivalent to the Etruscans (who are related to the Hittites and other Anatolian peoples) -- a soothsayer could sensibly come from this population and be part of a kind of Sibyl. Small minority like the Roma.
Your character could be from this group.
(2) The Peliades -- Greek equivalents. Majority of the population, and a mix of Spartan martial culture and Athenian political and social culture.
The daughter and her mother could be from this group.
(3) The Anaeans -- Roman equivalents; the second largest population group. Occupy more trade/martial classes than the Peliades, and are growing in power. They were conquered in a brutal war with the Peliades, and have been gradually accultured into Peliadean society.
You also might want to look at these two multi-class archetypes
I'm *considering* possibly switching my concept to being a Yaksha as I believe you said they were the original rulers or power in Raam?
If that's allowed, I might take levels in the Rakshasa paragon class but I'm not positive.
Just an idle musing at 3:30am, and definitely not a for sure switch.
I was using the term as it is used in Indian mythology for a kind of ogre like the many-headed Ravana in the Ramayana tradition. I was basically imagining them as Ogre-magi, but there could be several different types -- they don't rule in Raam any more -- the character would have been displaced and would either be in hiding or an exile.
I'm open to the character tree idea from 2nd edition if you want to try out more than one concept. I think the mul would work really well if we have another character from Balic, since he could be part of a gladiatorial school or a Helot.
If you want to go with the Rakshasha, the idea would be that they are a secret society that continues to exist in the underworld of Raam.
They worship a deity named Ravana whose temples and veneration were largely destroyed by Abalach-Re's conquest, but they maintain secret cults.
They would also have connections to the Thugges, the assassins that used to have a Temple of Doom style Kali cult in the Mountain of Assassins before they were displaced by the Hashashin under the direction of Abalach-Re.
Also, that character would be aware of a secret war between the servants of Dregoth infiltrating the city and the various parts of the criminal underworld, including the Rakshashas.
I really like both your character pitches and have story ideas for both, just choose the one you like the most.
What's the 'character tree from 2ed'? I played a bit in 2e, but not a lot, and it was all before 3.0 came out, so a rather long time ago, lol.
I'll sleep on these concepts and try to decide by tomorrow, so I can get started on building the character.
Whichever PC I decide on, the idea is for them to either initially be apart of the resistance to Abalach-Re's rule(prior to game start), or to eventually join it(via gameplay).
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That was the idea you had like 3 characters active at once b/c mortality was so high, and switched between them potentially.
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The mul could be a shamsher-baz, a kind of royal escourt/heavy infantry if he's from Raam -- basically the equivalent of gladiators in the Mughal army.
He'd also fit in with Balic, and I could connect his story to the Balican bard it looks like is joining the group from this thread.
I really like the Rashaksha idea too because the halfling that just joined the game also has a connection to the Raamite underworld.
Assuming I go with the Yaksha, any suggestions on how to boost it up to Athasian race strength?
I plan on keeping the Psychic Warrior(Pathwalker) but that hit to Wis kinda sucks, so I definitely don't want that to get worse. If it could turn into a bonus that would be awesome.
Adding a template or two is one option.
Some options are gray or black-touched with the idea that the yakshas emigrated to the Gray or the Black to escape Abalache-Re.
Some kind of elemental alignment would also work for Athas.
I'd also be open to granting you an additional wild talent or maybe a free level of a prestige class to try to balance things out.
The baseline seems to be another + 2 stat bonus and some additional traits.
If the yaksha have a minus on a stat, I don't think a 'conversion' really would involve reversing that, but adding + 2 to the major ability bonus. Otherwise, that's just fiddling with numbers for a build, it's not based on the fluff at all.
You might want to look at the conversion document for inspiration.
You could make him a phrenic creature Phrenic Creature
Oh, also mechanics... I'm fairly certain that I want to go with the Skinwalker race as previously discussed. I am planning to use the weretiger heritage, reflavored as werelion.
So, my suggestion would be to go with the Greco-Roman Balic idea -- my idea for the noble woman and her daughter is that they flee not just because they are suspected of using magic, but implicated in a dangerous breeding operation of anti-magic and psionic beetles that employs dangerous defling rituals. This was part of a conspiracy to overthow Adrophinus the Dictator of Balic.
I'm good with most of this. My concern about defiling being involved is that it that it would be difficult to justify remaining loyal for the character. He's a good guy, even if a bit naive about some things.
Adir isn't a particularly Greco-Roman name, are you set on it?
Not 100%, but I am inclined in that direction.
(1) The Tarkhuntas/Taquans are equivalent to the Etruscans (who are related to the Hittites and other Anatolian peoples) -- a soothsayer could sensibly come from this population and be part of a kind of Sibyl. Small minority like the Roma.
Your character could be from this group.
Sounds good. Does the skinwalker heritage change your perspective on this? As in, would you prefer the character to be an aberrant child of human parents, or from some barbarian tribe of skinwalkers? I'm flexible on this.
Oh, also mechanics... I'm fairly certain that I want to go with the Skinwalker race as previously discussed. I am planning to use the weretiger heritage, reflavored as werelion.
So, my suggestion would be to go with the Greco-Roman Balic idea -- my idea for the noble woman and her daughter is that they flee not just because they are suspected of using magic, but implicated in a dangerous breeding operation of anti-magic and psionic beetles that employs dangerous defling rituals. This was part of a conspiracy to overthow Adrophinus the Dictator of Balic.I'm good with most of this. My concern about defiling being involved is that it that it would be difficult to justify remaining loyal for the character. He's a good guy, even if a bit naive about some things.
Adir isn't a particularly Greco-Roman name, are you set on it?Not 100%, but I am inclined in that direction.
Sounds good. Does the skinwalker heritage change your perspective on this? As in, would you prefer the character to be an aberrant child of human parents, or from some barbarian tribe of skinwalkers? I'm flexible on this.(1) The Tarkhuntas/Taquans are equivalent to the Etruscans (who are related to the Hittites and other Anatolian peoples) -- a soothsayer could sensibly come from this population and be part of a kind of Sibyl. Small minority like the Roma.
Your character could be from this group.
There were lions in ancient Italy, so the werelion idea could be worked into the fluff for the pseudo-Etruscan people. They would be part of a mystery cult/secret society of some sort, possibly based Mithraism.
I'm not sure about your response on naming conventions; this sort of fluff material is important to me -- 'Adir' sounds Semitic, and that doesn't fit with the cultural milieu of Balic, which is Greco-Roman. I'd prefer people not choose random names, but try to fit them into the canon cultures of the different city states -- or give some reason why he has a named that's not related to the culture he's from.
Leaning more towards the Yaksha currently, as that concept appeals to me.
If I go the 'character tree' route, would I be playing both(all 3) PCs at more or less the same time, or would I play one, with the other(s) sidelined? Do I actually have to wait till one dies to take up another?
What is 'gray or black touched'? And where can I find more info on the Gray or Black that the Yaksha might have escaped too?
You also might want to look at these two multi-class archetypes
Initial thoughts/ramblings:
The oracle one doesn't speak to me.
Keening Soul is intriguing, though full casting is a rough concession. It does keep most of the hexes which is what I want most. I'll consider combining it with the Charming archetype.
There were lions in ancient Italy, so the werelion idea could be worked into the fluff for the pseudo-Etruscan people. They would be part of a mystery cult/secret society of some sort, possibly based Mithraism.
That sounds very cool.
I'm not sure about your response on naming conventions; this sort of fluff material is important to me -- 'Adir' sounds Semitic, and that doesn't fit with the cultural milieu of Balic, which is Greco-Roman. I'd prefer people not choose random names, but try to fit them into the canon cultures of the...
I'll work on it. I might try out something "on the nose" along the lines of Leonidas.
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What is 'gray or black touched'? And where can I find more info on the Gray or Black that the Yaksha might have escaped too?
p. 87 of the conversion.
Leaning more towards the Yaksha currently, as that concept appeals to me.
If I go the 'character tree' route, would I be playing both(all 3) PCs at more or less the same time, or would I play one, with the other(s) sidelined? Do I actually have to wait till one dies to take up another?
What is 'gray or black touched'? And where can I find more info on the Gray or Black that the Yaksha might have escaped too?
These are the original rules:
honestly though, I just meant that in the spirit of this idea I didn't have any problem with more than one character per player -- if you want to run them concurrently or any other way, I don't really mind.
Yea, I can definitely run two characters, though I'm not sure if I'll run them as fully concurrent. Might be a little odd playing two active PCs in every scene.
I'll probably write up the Yaksha first, as I want to take my time with each character.
Also, it's gonna take me at least several days. My mom is moving up to my grandmother's(where I currently live) tomorrow(the 2nd) and I'll need to help her move in, so might need some time.
It's not a big deal -- we're kind of in a holding pattern right now while the new players catch up on the gameplay thread -- this hasn't been a quick game either, and I doubt it's going to start being one.
Here's some more fluff to fill in the background
When Abalach-Re invaded with her legions of Temujin horse archers, the Rakshasas and other tribes of Yakshas were defeated. A remnant withdrew to the summit of the Mountain of Assassins, whose peak contains a portal to the plane known as the Black.
The Black contains both the inverse of the Prime Material Plane, but also its potentialities (note: that description of the Black is all from cannon). The surviving rakshasas founded a shadowy city named Alaka on Mt. Sumeru, the dark reflection of the Mountain of Assassins in the Black.
Here, they still venerate Vaiśravaṇa (Kubera), and Rāvaṇa. These are, respectively, the Black and Material Plane manifestations of the King of the Yakshas.
Alaka contains numerous portals to the current city of Raam -- the Rakshasas use this as a means to come and go as they please.
They are still an important power broker among the underworld powers of the city, including a Thief Guild and an Assassins Guild, the latter known as the 'Dark Ring'.
The Rakshasas are experts at smuggling because of their portal network. They are also masters of disguise and illusion. One of their enterprises is an un-findable safehouse in Alaka.
The Rakshasas are ruled by two councils of 10 that represents the different heads of their twin deity. One rules in Alaka, and the other in Raam.
The thief and assassin guilds are descended from the Desi nobles ousted by Abalach-Re's followers. The Rakshasas continue to be close to them because their ancestors were their viceroys in the rule of Raam.
The Rakshasas and their human allies in Raam's underworld are engaged in a secret conflict known as the 'Hidden' or 'Veiled War' against the followers of Dregoth. The fallen sorcerer-king's templars have infiltrated the city and converted some of the inhabitants of the city to a cult known as the Chosen/Children of the Deep/Deepest Gray(s). A special caste of Dregoth's templars skilled in deceit and illusion.
Since I'm gonna put forth two characters, I think I'll make the Yaksha some sort of sneak/assassin, but I believe I'll keep the Rakshasa Paragon as the other half.
Is Path of War allowed?
yeah, Path of War is fine (as is basically anything else), as long as you're responsible for the rules. I've never made or run a character with this system -- so you'd be in charge of how it works.
The biggest thing to be aware of with PoW stuff is that all of the strikes, boosts and counters are regained with each encounter, just like Tome of Battle(Book of Nine Swords). If that's somehow a problem, let me know. I'm not fully committed to using PoW.
Also, are we allowed to be evil? I won't be disruptive, or problematic evil, so don't worry there.
How deadly is the campaign likely to be? As in, how much defense should we be looking for in our second class?
@ Monkeygod -- Evil's fine as long as it's not disruptive pvp evil-- we already have evil characters; PoW sounds fine, I just don't want to get in a situation where a player asks me how their sub system works in combat -- you tell me how many actions/when/how much damage etc. Sounds like that won't be a problem.
@ Slyness -- I'm trying hard not to have anyone die -- it depends on how smart you are. There aren't 'leveled' areas like a videogame -- high and low power people are wandering around like a real world. You always have a chance to be strategic or negotiate. Defense would be good, there's some intense stuff in the future. I just don't want to give the impression I'm aiming for a TPK on a regular basis.
Alright, I'm thinking I was born, raised and trained in Alaka, until a year or so(3 at the most, if that's okay) ago when I was assigned to Raam.
I want to have been in the Raam long enough to have established a decent reputation, as well as set up some contacts and allies.
Build wise, I'm going to ditch the paragon class, and go with something I've been dying to play in gestalt: a Stalker/Harbinger(both PoW classes).
General theme will be hit and run tactics, mobility, ambushes, plus some decent ranged capabilities. Solid skill selection as well.
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My idea is that the two great councils both compete and work together (being rākṣasa, they couldn't be totally peaceable could they :)?). My current idea is that your character is the child of a daughter of one of the council members.
He is thus almost on loan to the rākṣasas still in Raam, kind of a cross between a hostage and an emissary.
The ruling council of Alaka is known as the 'The Shadow Council' -- Pāriṣada Chāyā, while corresponding organization in Raam is known as Pāriṣada Prabhāvanā or Prabhāvanāsaṃyaktva -- 'The Council of Good Works (and Right Belief)'.
I propose your character is a child of Śūrpaṇakhā Mīnakshi, one of the princesses of Alaka. Her father is among the unnamed rulers of the Pāriṣada Chāyā.
Your character is given contacts with the Syāmavarṇa Karāroṭa (“Dark Ring”), the assassin and slavers guild, which, along with the thieves' guild, are the principle underworld remnants of the human Desi aristocracy that used to serve the yakṣas of Raam.
The slayer known as Vivek Śravaṇabeḷagoḷa of the Syāmavarṇa Karāroṭa is your chief contact. He has recently included your character in his plans to infiltrate the Chosen/Children of the Deep/Deepest Gray(s).
Question,
Is any of this information found in the Dark Sun 2ed books?(As I don't believe there was anything in 3.x beyond the Dungeon and Dragon issues)
No, this is Raam fluff I'm making up to expand the canon.
If you read the 2e description, it doesn't contradict it, but I'm adding in a lot of new details. The city is beleaguered and their are enforcers and assassins that work for Abalach-Re who portrays herself as the earthly emissary of a deity called Badna.
It is clearly supposed to be based on Mughal India, so I'm adding in more details to make things more interesting, such as the rakshasas and so forth.
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I said this somewhere, but it might bear repeating -- there isn't one canon version of Dark Sun -- the original box set is different from the revision, and neither of these exactly match the world depicted in the novels either. The 3.0 update by Paizo adds some of its own elements too. 4e also is a different take.
This is my take on Dark Sun. It's closest to the 2e box, but I'm adding stuff -- I don't feel bound by the 2e box. There was a suggestion that the halflings might be extraterrestrial in 2e -- I'm taking that up and making magic and psionics have their origins in alien technology in this version of Dark Sun.
I'm also greatly expanding the fluff for all the city states based on the real world cultures on which they are based. Raam is named after a Hindu deity, and the city is clearly supposed to be a version of Mughal India. I'm drawing on history, as well as Buddhist, Hindu, and Jain mythology to expand and elaborate that depictions. I'm using Hindi and Sanskrit dictionaries to come up with all these names -- it's not just random garble.
I mean, don't you think Raam is more interesting with all the rakshasa politics?
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I guess I should also clarify this isn't a 1 - 1 adaptation of Legacy of Fire. I don't ever run stuff 'out of the box', and I'm more of a sandbox style DM.
There's a lot of stuff going on in my version of Dark Sun, including a version of the plot of Legacy of Fire, which the players are free to pursue if they want to.
There are also a lot of things I made up or will borrow from other sources. The current scenario is sort of based on the 2e module Black Flames, but it's set in Kalidnay instead of Yarmuke, and I made the plot more coherent (there's no real reason to help the dragon in the original adventure). This all takes place in the sort of 'prelude' of the 1st AP module, where the heroes start on the road to Kelmarane.
The ruins of Kalidnay are going to be based on pieces of Rappan Athuk, Slumbering Tsar, and Tsen from Sword of Air, plus stuff I made up.
While all of this is incredibly awesome, and makes me even more excited to play, and very glad I decided to check this out in the first place, I was hoping there might be some published material that I could read to get a better handle on my PC's history, and personality.
Maybe I'll just sort of write him like an Assamite from Vampire the Masquerade, as they draw on both the Thuggees and the Hashashin.
I honestly just made up all that stuff based on the character you proposed -- I can develop some more material if you have specific questions of areas you want developed.
The vampire clans are actually probably a pretty good model. I think one of the Antedeluvians was Ravana wasn't it? That sort of gives me a cool idea that all the rakshasas are concerned about the yaksha kings waking up/coming back and eating them all.
Here's some more ideas:
The rākṣasas of Alaka are divided into a number of 'packs'/'litters'/or 'kindles' Zauvana Vyāghraḥ; these are generations of the rākṣasas, and they are divided between those who lived before the 'great exile' -- the Mahāgṛhabhaṅga -- and after.
These generations are known as the 'city born' Nagar Upajananam (those born in Raam before the conquest) and the 'shadow born' Chāyā Upajananam (those born after the exile).
The Chāyā Pāriṣada is composed of those who first fled to Mt. Sumeru in the Black, and the Prabhāvanā Pāriṣada of those who remained behind to guard their people's legacy.
The legends of the rākṣasas suggest that their progenitor may one day return to devour them for their gall in surviving his death.
The rākṣasas were only one tribe of the yakṣasa -- another tribe, also known as yakṣasas, were in form similar to ogres. These were wiped out by Abalach-Re's conquest, but the rākṣasas preserved them with shadow magic, and made them into servitors. The rākṣasas who remain in Raam see this as a great betrayal, and distrust their kin on account of it.
The rākṣasas in Alaka spend much time on the 'game of shadows', where they compete with one another for esoteric knowledge of their history and lore, much of which was lost during the conquest and its remnants scattered throughout the Black. An enterprising soul may rise in its rank by retrieving some important lost bit of lore.
Yep, Ravana was the Ravnos clan founder.
The Assamites are perfect to draw from, as their base of operations is Alamut, which is a mountain castle in present day Iran.
Would it be okay if I adopted the seven year 'ghoul' period(which obviously will just be like a probation/minion/training period), which preceded the official embrace into the clan?
I think I even have Clanbook Ravnos I can read through for some more inspiration, unless you would prefer I to stick with Assamite(which is my favorite clan, so I have lots of resources to draw from).
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Yeah the ghoul period sounds like what I was imagining -- they get to come back if they do well, otherwise they're cut lose.
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I got both those clan books from a humble bundle deal a couple of years back, so I can ransack both for cool ideas as well.
Excellent!! What sort of naming conventions should I use? I saw that mattered in an above reply to another player.
Also, curious, what time zone are ya in? You seem to post late at night for me(I'm on EST, so it's 4:20am)
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I like this origin story too...
However, the Ravnos claim a richer prehistory, recorded in the Karavalanisha Vrana, "The Wounds of the Night's Sword". This epic poem details how angelic beings (probably Kuei-jin) betrayed their original purpose and became blood-drinking demons; to balance them out, the Gods brought back to life a man who had been wronged more by these asuratziyya more than any other. This creature, named Zapathasura, was charged by the Gods to exterminate the asuratziyya and restore balance to the world.
In his quest for vengeance, Zapathasura Embraced five childer: Marizhavashti Kali, a seer; the Rakshasa, a shapeshifter; Chandraputra, a military leader; Ravana, who betrayed Zapathasura and may be the Yama King of the same name; and Ramessu, who served as an internal policeman for Zapathasura's war. These five methuselahs are the ancestors of all other Ravnos. They served Zapathasura for centuries in prehistoric India until the wearied of their sire's endless war and slaughter, abandoning him to his own devices as time passed. Ravnos eventually fell into torpor and the clan restructured.
It should all be at home in classical buddhist/jain/hindu India.
The yaksas are part of the Hindu pre-Mughal (Arabic/Mongol/Persian/Turkish) strata. I'm using Hindi, Pali, Sanksrit, and Prakrit names for all the pre Abalach-Re/Mughal stratum. This could also include Avestan, since that language is related to classical Sanskrit.
The other stuff is a mix of Mongol/Arabic/Persian.
I live on the east coast but work a late shift, so I'm usually posting late after work.
I rather like the Assamite take on their origin in the revised clanbook, that Caine himself embraced Haqim, to act as judge, jury and executioner of the kindred within Enoch.
Also, is my idea about being born and raised in Alaka okay? If so, that gives me some rather interesting stuff to work with.
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Let's make Raam equivalent to Enoch in this story, and Alaka equivalent to Alamut.
So, Ravana appointed the rakshasas as the neutral diplomats of the yaksa tribes, which explains their continued business interest in providing safe houses in Alaka.
Yes, you can be of the later generation born in the city.
Can I adopt the Laws of Haqim, and The Khabar(from the second edition clanbook) for the assassins guild?
Also, I do in fact have Ravnos revised, so let me know if I should bother looking through that for ideas, or just stick to Assamite.
I think both could be interesting sources of inspiration.
I like some of both ideas -- Ravana/Vaisravana is an ahura in Hindu mythology, which are sort of like the demons of Hinduism. The mythology could involve the yaksas being kicked out of heaven by the devas and appointed as intermediaries/police of the other demons.
Are you imagining the rakshasas have an assassin's guild or are you talking about the Dark Ring -- that's a primarily human organization in Raam. They're supposed to be the remnants of human nobles that used to serve the yakshas and also had a Kali cult.
Seeing as how you said Alaka was the shadowy version of the Mountain of Assassins in the Black, and that it was like Alamut, I kinda assumed they had an asssassin's guild.
I kinda see the Rakshasa as very similar to the Assamites, with different castes, and roles.
Thought it would probably make more sense if the 'sorcerers' held more power in Rakshasa society than the 'warriors' of the Assamites.
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I like the idea for the 'sorcerer', 'vizier' and 'assassin' castes -- let's have that apply to Alaka, and your character is part of the 'assassin' caste. They look down somewhat on the human assassin guild, which they see as more materialistic and political, and having polluted their divine charge to keep order from Ravana.
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Here's an attempt to sort of combine the origins stories and social organization
In the Green Age, the area around Raam, known as Āryāvarta was the home of a great river valley civilization. This culture was originally ruled by a group of halfling survivors of the Blue Age, including naturemasters, and their allies, such as the Pyreen, that were known as the devá. The creatures that would eventually become the yakṣas were originally servants and allies of the devá.
The yakṣa Rāvaṇa was appointed by the halfling king Maharajadhiraja Aśoka Chandragupta I to keep the peace over the new races, such as the humans, varanas, nagaji, and others, that lived under halfling and pyreen rule.
Rāvaṇa's servants numbered at least the tiger-like rākṣasa, and the ogre-like yakṣa, though their are legends of other yakṣa tribes of different descriptions.
After a long rule, Rāvaṇa rebelled against the devá, and were exiled from Raam. This is known as the first exile, or expulsion.
However, Rāvaṇaand his servants fought a war against their former masters, and seized Raam from their grasp. The yakṣas triumphed and became known as the asura or ahura or asuratziyya.
This story is told recorded in the Karavalanisha Vrana, "The Wounds of the Night's Sword". This epic poem details how angelic beings betrayed their original purpose and became blood-drinking demons; to balance them out, the Gods brought back to life a man who had been wronged more by these asuratziyya more than any other. This creature, named Zapathasura, was charged by the Gods to exterminate the asuratziyya and restore balance to the world.
In his quest for vengeance, Zapathasura embraced five of the penitent asuratziyya: Marizhavashti Kali, a seer; the Rakshasa, a shapeshifter; Chandraputra, a military leader; Ravana, who betrayed Zapathasura and may be the Yama King of the same name; and Ramessu, who served as an internal policeman for Zapathasura's war.
These are the ancestors of the existing and rumored yakṣa clans.
They served Zapathasura for centuries in prehistoric Āryāvarta until the wearied of their sire's endless war and slaughter, abandoning him to his own devices as time passed.
Rāvaṇa eventually fell into an endless slumber, and his children continued to rule in his name.
The rākṣasa of Alaka are now divided into 'warriors' (kṣatriyaḥ), 'viziers' (guru), and 'sorcerers' (ṛṣi).
They fear the return of Rāvaṇa to complete the revenge of Zapathasura on behalf of the ancient halfling and pyreen.
Would it be possible for my family to date back to either the founding of Alaka, or even to Raam, before the exile to The Black?
Speaking of that realm, is it detailed any further elsewhere, or can you provide me more info on it of your own creation?
I'm trying to find a good shadowy template. Shadow Creature I feel is a bit too weak, while a Shadow Lord is much too powerful, especially cuz it needs to applied to a creature that already has the shadow template.
Is there a 'black touched' template? If not would we be able to create one?