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I like the Leaf Druid a lot conceptually, but the overwhelming majority of what it gets is pretty underwhelming. Woodland stride and "talk to plants" are the sorts of "well it might get used" powers you'd be okay with if your class handed them to you but aren't really exciting to choose as a feat.
Like the leaf druid works solely because the primal spell list is good and you can just be a spellcaster. None of the order specific stuff before like level 18 is exciting.
I would honestly like it if there were more low level leaf feats that served to make you more resilient like a plant, as a prelude to Verdant Metamorphosis at level 18.
I agree with everything here, and most of what I can find about Leaf Order Druids from using the Search function here.
I'll be honest, I have played Pathfinder for about 10 years, and in my group of multi-decades-long vets of pencil and paper games I am still considered a noob, lol, and that is fine. Pathfinder 2nd ed looks to me to finally be the experience I am looking for and I am excited (what an awesome start you guys have hear!).
After reading the PDF I can say that the Leaf Order Druid is the class that is jumping out at me, the flavor and fluff are exceptional, so much more mature and nuanced than the other offerings IMHO. BUT, even being a "NOOB" I can plainly see that the class is ridiculously situational, and by a wide margin "weaker" than the other orders. I understand that every class and option and permutation will not balance against everything else, but I am worried about this Order- enough to make an account and voice an opinion.
I want to play A Leaf Order Druid in our first campaign with 2nd ED next year, we're getting ready already, but I am starting to get nervous that I am making a big mistake. Too many other classes, and even Druid Orders seem too much more dynamic and exciting, mechanically speaking.
There are so many great ideas for fixing or rethinking this Order in the Druid discussions, and so many voices seem to echo that there is room for improvement here. I hope these voices do not go unheard.
In any case thanks for making a platform for us to interact with you, and for creating such an awesome vehicle to help tell such awesome stories with my friends!
I understand the concept of subjectivity being different for everyone, especially when we’re trying to figure out if the feats are exciting, but yeah I’m going to be honest with you it’s about as lacking in dynamics as it gets, particularly in comparison to the other classes and powers out there. Pile on the situational nature of the build and I think you are in real trouble. What happens when you are in a castle or a dungeon, etc, and there are just no plants to talk to anymore?
Mechanically this Order is not for me, but I LOVE the concept. Selfishly, I want this to work so badly!
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Yeah, I've had people tell me Leaf Order was the route for "caster Druid" but I don't even see that. Caster Druid right now is just using all the non-Order Class Feats. I think there is real space for extra-caster-y Druid along the themes of Feyspeaker, Leyline, etc. But Leaf certainly isn't it, and certainly isn't much impressive at whatever it's trying to do.
Where is terrain-based HiPS? Where is unique high end Entangle mechanics? Woodland stride, Poison Resistance should have Leaf-order specific improvements. Like Animal Aspect, there should be specific plant aspects (Pine, Oak, Ivy, Bamboo, Belladonna, Fungi). Treestep meets Rope Trick. etc.
Quandry, I agree, 100%. Its funny you mention "unique high end Entangle mechanics" its what I thought the first time I read the title for the order. I have read some good ideas on these forums, I like some of TGH's suggestions above:
Please consider the following changes:
-For the Goodberry Power: Make the Goodberries appear out of thin air. So you can use the power during any season and in every terrain. You might make them heal less afterwards.
-Add another class feature for the leaf order at lvl 6 or 8. Maybe some kind of transformation into a plant (plant form).
-Describe better what plants are able to do for you.
-The Verdant Metamorphosis feat got the same proplem as the Goodberry Power. It is too situational. Most groups rest at night, so as a leaf druid you can almost never use this power. Make it useable during the night in terrain where you can take root. And maybe change the recovered HP to a fixed value like 100 HP.
Yeah, I've had people tell me Leaf Order was the route for "caster Druid" but I don't even see that. Caster Druid right now is just using all the non-Order Class Feats. I think there is real space for extra-caster-y Druid along the themes of Feyspeaker, Leyline, etc. But Leaf certainly isn't it, and certainly isn't much impressive at whatever it's trying to do.
Where is terrain-based HiPS? Where is unique high end Entangle mechanics? Woodland stride, Poison Resistance should have Leaf-order specific improvements. Like Animal Aspect, there should be specific plant aspects (Pine, Oak, Ivy, Bamboo, Belladonna, Fungi). Treestep meets Rope Trick. etc.
The Leaf and Storm Orders are the 2 caster druids. Leaf Order does need some serious help because Storm blows it away for both utility and blastiness. At the moment there is no reason to take Leaf order other than flavor which is sad. Personally Storm order has always been my flavor so I was very happy to see it in PF2 but Leaf is also thematically cool and did not get the same treatment.
As far as possible fixes go: the possibilities mentioned by others in the thread seem reasonable though even they might not be enough. I do like the idea of an enhanced Leaf only entangle: primal Black Tentacles would be fun:)
Gents, is there any value in pulling all of the suggestions together in one thread? There is some stuff kind of spread out over the forum. Would it matter at this point, is it too late for the right people to see this?
I think the sense in which the leaf order is the one for "caster druids" is that the stuff you get if you spend precisely zero class feats on order-specific stuff is still okay (trained in diplomacy, a familiar, and goodberry which has no synergy with any feats but is still useful) allowing you to spend 100% of your feats on metamagic and non-order stuff.
Since if you go animal order, you will want to spend feats on keeping your companion relevant, if you go wild order you will want to spend feats on wild-shaping, if you go storm order you will at least want to grab a couple of things that synergize with tempest surge, since it's good single target damage.
Like if I was going to combine Druid with a spellcasting archetype with the full five feat investment for maximal second-class spellcasting, I would pick leaf. Like something like a human Druid/Cleric of Gozreh whose class feats are Reach Spell, Cleric Dedication, Basic Cleric Spellcasting, Steady Spellcasting, Divine Breadth, Healing Transformation, Expert Cleric Spellcasting, Master Cleric Spellcasting, and Leyline Conduit probably is better off as a leaf druid than another order; if nothing else it's the easiest anathema.
I hear that, and I agree with you- its probably the reason it is this way. I feel like its a waste of awesome flavor and theme, though.
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How did I forget? Cactus aspect FTW
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CACTUS ASPECT FTW!
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Even looking for the low effort dip option, storm still ends up being mechanically better. Leaf's niche being "so bad you don't want to improve it" is pretty bleak.
Is this thread monitored, or is there another place to submit issues or concerns? Thank you!
Even looking for the low effort dip option, storm still ends up being mechanically better. Leaf's niche being "so bad you don't want to improve it" is pretty bleak.
If you have a min would you mind giving me a couple pointers on how you see the Storm Druid coming together in a build? PM if its more appropriate, I do not want to violate any of the forum rules, thank yoU!
Even looking for the low effort dip option, storm still ends up being mechanically better. Leaf's niche being "so bad you don't want to improve it" is pretty bleak.If you have a min would you mind giving me a couple pointers on how you see the Storm Druid coming together in a build? PM if its more appropriate, I do not want to violate any of the forum rules, thank yoU!
what do you want exactly? I played a level 12 Storm Druid and could tell you how I did it if that's what you're asking.
Hi, anyone with the book right now can please comment on how the Leaf Druid ended up? I’d love to know!