PFS1 character exchange idea

[mjmeans]

I don't know if this has been suggested before as this forum is TLDR. But my to help PFS 1e players that can't "convert" their PFS 1e characters to PFS 2e is:

You can "retire early" a PFS 1e character to create a new PFS 2e character that will start at the same level. The retired PFS 1e character must be at least 2nd level. You must already have a PFS 2e character of at least the level of the PFS 1e character being retired. This ensures that you have played up to at least this level in PFS 2e and are familiar with game play at this level and aren't just jumping in with both feet. The new PFS 2e character isn't required to be the same race, class, etc. The retired PFS 1e character is marked as retired on Paizo.com and is no longer valid for play in PFS 1e.

This is roughly equivalent to being "reincarnated" into a new world! Things change!

GOLD: The new PFS 2e character will start with gold according to some table similar to the "character wealth by level" table for Pathfinder 1 gamemastering section, but tweaked for PFS 2e play.

BOONS: The new PFS 2e character will start with a number of boons from chronicles of any other PFS 2e characters the player possesses. The number of boons that can be chosen is 1 per XP for the new PFS 2e character. You can choose from any boon on any PFS 2e chronicle sheet you have earned as long it was appropriate for the tier or subtier, even if the original PFS 2e character didn't qualify for it (i.e. didn't satisfy the game play conditions to grant the boon). Any given boon can only be chosen once and can only be applied to one new PFS 2e character, so if you have some particularly awesome boon, you only get to apply it to a single new PFS 2e character created from the PFS 1e retirement process.

Additionally you could allow some amount of the XP that would otherwise be spent on a choice of boons to instead be spent to gain a single "prize table boon" according to the blog post (I don't remember the link).

ANALYSIS:
- This will incentivize PFS 1e players to the transition to PFS 2e after a few games, and incentivize them to ultimately retire all remaining PFS 1e characters. But doing so in a way that doesn't make you feel like all that time spent on the PFS 1e character is completely wasted. And it does so in a way that I believe isn't unbalancing to new PFS 2e players.
- The new PFS 2e characters created through this process will have fewer boons than a typical PFS 2e character, but it will have cherry picked them.
- This will also help players be able to fill a table slot when they appear without a character of a specific level. Early on, there will be many players that only have a few characters and perhaps doesn't have a character in a specific suptier. Using this method, if a session will be running at subtier 3-4 and the player doesn't have a character of that level, they can choose to retire one of their PFS 1e characters in the 3-7 range to create a new PFS 2e character.
- It is an outside concern, but I do see players that would rather not play pre-gens as they have no emotional resonance to them. And they would also rather not play down to a lower subtier. I have seen a few times, a player leave a game session because they didn't have a characer of the appriopriate subtier and didn't want to play a pregen. This option could mitigate, to sone extent, those outside concerns.

[Pirate Rob]

It has been suggested before and I believe Paizo said they do not plan to have any character conversion rules.

[mjmeans]

Pirate Rob wrote:

It has been suggested before and I believe Paizo said they do not plan to have any character conversion rules.

This idea is not a "conversion". The old 1e charcter is retired to allow the player to begin a new character at a higher level than 1st. Reread it carefully.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I am against this suggestion, this should be a fresh start for everyone.

EDIT: What you played and how much you played should stay in the PF1.

[Jane "The Knife"]

mjmeans wrote:

Pirate Rob wrote:

It has been suggested before and I believe Paizo said they do not plan to have any character conversion rules.

This idea is not a "conversion". The old 1e charcter is retired to allow the player to begin a new character at a higher level than 1st. Reread it carefully.

Vote against.

Example: Why limit it to PFS1 characters? Why not allow me to "retire" a character from D&D 5th? or my friends Home Game? or ... heck, a WoW character? I mean, as long as I have played a 2nd Edition PC once up to the level of the 'Toon I am "retiring", I could create a BUNCH of "Conversion Characters"...

[Philippe Lam]

Everyone should start at the same level 0, so no, I would like but absolutely against the idea. Hard and clear transition is better than a muddy.

[TwilightKnight]

One aspect to remember is that for the first year or so, the developers will be focused on producing only low tier scenarios. If you simply create a new character at level one, chances are you’ll level up naturally to that of the 1E version at roughly the same time as you’ll be able to pay the “exchanges” character using the methodology of the OP. YMMV

[mjmeans]

@Jane "The Knife": Because Paizo is a company and PFS is an organized play system. Keeping the players currently participating in PFS is as equally important as enticing new players.

@Philippe Lam: Yes, a faster transition is better. But you won't have that with many players unless they are provided a reason to stop playing their PFS 1E characters. And that reason has to not be done in a way that doesn't make the player think they are being forced into change. Forcing someone to change will alienate players who go to some cother completely different RPG and will never look back. My propposal attempts to provide a reason for change that will not be over powered and cause new players who never played 1E to be resentful. Perhaps my proposal falls short and needs work. I think the goal to find new players in the current RPG environment is necessary for Paizo, but to also to retain nearly 100% and possibly even bring back previous PFS 1E players who have ostensibly abandoned it is desirable.

@Bob Jonquet: Yes. My proposal would still require you to level up a new PFS 2E character from level 0 in order to have an option to exchange. Like "try before you buy".

It seems there is fair bit of consensus against retiring old 1E characters in favor of 2E characters. I, for one, am curious about 2E but not at all interested in discarding my 1E characters, or learning a new game system and having to keep track of two different sets of RPG rules. I have a total of six PFS 1E characters and that is enough for me to keep track of. The mere fact that there is (or will be) a 2E version of Pathfinder is interresting, but not enough for me to even want to play it, even once. I'm happy with 1E. So, for me, as long as there is no overriding reason to learn a new game system I will just stay at 1E, even if that means playing fewer games. As it is now, I play PFS 1E an average of once a month and I have plenty of other non RPG games to occupy my time, including my current favorite: a Steam game called Stellaris.

In short, I currently have no desire to learn a new RPG game system and see no benefit for me in doing so. I stayed with AD&D 2.x until 2 years after Pathfinder came out, completely ignoring decades of D&D 3.x. I have also subsequently ignored D&D 4 and 5, and Starfinder, and every other RPG system. Unless there is a reason to change, I'm happy sticking with PFS 1E as long as there are still PFS games to play. -- Just my 2 cents.

[TwilightKnight]

mjmeans wrote:

...has to not be done in a way that doesn't make the player think they are being forced into change

Releasing a new edition is exactly a forced change but only with respect to Organized Play. "Home" games can continue to play as they always have and ignore 2E. And since we are going to continue to maintain PFS1 as sanctioned play, theoretically you can continue playing that as well

[Zach Davis]

I am also against this idea. As others have said there needs to be a fresh start in PF2e.

[Wicked Brew]

I will preface my comment by stating I am not happy about PF1 PFS coming to an end. I enjoy the characters I have in that system and fully intend to continue to use them in PF1 as long as I am able.

That being said, and after much thought on the issue, I do not think allowing PF1 characters to be converted into PF2 solves that issue. Additionally, I do not think conversion is even viable. Many of the characters I see on the boards (primarily a PbP player) use the full gambit of available materials and options and will not convert into the new game mechanics. This includes races and archetypes as well as boons and what not. I do not see the point of someone converting a teifling gloomblade over to PF2 as it would strip all of the flavor and mechanics from the character in exchange for just allowing the player to basically start with a X level player. From the snippets shown thus far, and I am sure will be made more evident when the books finally hit the wild, PF2 characters for PFS need to be started clean slate.

The bottom line is that PF2 looks like it will be a very different game from PF1. The archetypes will not work the same and many of the options available for PF1, a game with ten years of content, will just not be there when PF2 launches.

I think the two games will be competing against each other for player's time for a while, at least a year or two as the many folks out there who still enjoy PF1 continue to exhaust the available content and PF2 is put through its paces. I would love to see Paizo do a limited license, ala the OP content for the other company's game, to allow a 3PP to publish new PF1 scenarios. I think the market for new PF1 materiel, specifically for PFS, will be there for quite some time if fostered.

The playtest rapidly approaches and I am excited to see the fresh take on the game in totality. Paizo is a great company and has cultivated a fantastic RPG community here.

[mjmeans]

To all. If there is no incentive for players to retire their PFS 1E characters in favor of PFS 2E characters, then you have to accept that there will be a non-trivial number of 1E GM's and players who will stick with 1E. This represents a portion of the buying public that will stop or reduce purchases of 1E content.

There is sufficient 1E content (scenarios, modules and APs) to keep PFS 1E players happy for a very long time, at least another 10 years. And many GMs who have subscriptions to scenarios have already paid for all of them anyway, so if those GMs don't switch to 2E content, the market is diminished. And GMs who don't have enough players willing to switch to 2E won't, for the most part, buy any 2E material; thus reducing sales. It is inevitable. If you think the market loss is too small compared to the new players joining for 2E, then it may still be a good business decision to not provide some incentive to switch, but time will tell. I'm not an expert in the business of the game industry.

For me there would have to be some tangible reason for me to switch. Simply because it's new would not. A similarly enjoyable game would not be a reason. A substantially more enjoyable game would be a good reason, but I'm not willing to pay money just to find out. Free product (even $1 for $1 exchange of 1E books for 2E books) would not, unless I already knew I wanted it. A manufacturer imposed reduced opportunity to play a game I enjoy, PFS 1E, in favor of something else that is not substantially better, PFS 2E, would piss me off.

[numbat1]

I think there is going to be a wide variety of attitudes and emotions regarding the two editions and OP within each.

I am a subscriber for both PFS1E and SFS content. I will be a subscriber for PFS2E content. While having only joined OP about a year ago, I have made many purchases since and now have a PDF library that contains almost all source material and all but a few seasons of PFS Scenarios. I intend to fill some of those gaps when I can.

In five years, if I am still playing PFS1E and SFS and also PFS2E, I will be happy. If I am no longer playing PFS1E it is likely because a natural progression has happened and there is little 1E OP happening. I may still be playing 1E in home games if that is what my group decides to do.

Others will follow a different path. Time will tell the outcome and longevity of these game systems and their OP communities.

The system suggested in this thread to allow for more higher level characters is interesting. If there was sufficient content published that I needed more PFS2E characters to be able to play it all, then I would consider utilizing it if available. I suspect though that the rate of scenario publication will match fairly well the rate of character progression and thus it will not be needed.

[JDDyslexia]

mjmeans wrote:

To all. If there is no incentive for players to retire their PFS 1E characters in favor of PFS 2E characters, then you have to accept that there will be a non-trivial number of 1E GM's and players who will stick with 1E. This represents a portion of the buying public that will stop or reduce purchases of 1E content.

It's been well discussed in other threads that PFS1 isn't going anywhere for a while, based simply on the fact that PFS2 won't be publishing scenarios fast enough to keep up with demand. It's not like PFS2 is going to be released and Paizo will be like "Blam, here's the first season in full, up front. Have at it!" The average scenario release is 2 per month. The store that I'm a Venture Agent at has at least 12 tables a month. Even if I offered a PFS2 table every week, I still need to fill in the rest with PFS1.

Take a look at how Starfinder Society is going. A lot of people that are getting into Starfinder also play Pathfinder. If you have access to a local game store that offers Society tables and does both Pathfinder and Starfinder, you'll see a lot of people that are playing and GMing both. Also, remember that PFS2 is going into an open playtest for a full year. That's more than enough time for players and GMs to try out the system and get an idea for what they like and what they don't like. It's easy for you to make these predictions now, but the market is going to provide tangible, useful feedback and the climate is going to drastically change in 12 months.

mjmeans wrote:

There is sufficient 1E content (scenarios, modules, and APs) to keep PFS 1E players happy for a very long time, at least another 10 years. And many GMs who have subscriptions to scenarios have already paid for all of them anyway, so if those GMs don't switch to 2E content, the market is diminished. And GMs who don't have enough players willing to switch to 2E won't, for the most part, buy any 2E material; thus reducing sales.

I'm not sure about PFS1 in your area, but VOs are given access to PFS scenarios free of charge and have the authority to print out these materials and hand them to GMs who wish to GM them at local stores. While, in my area, there are lots of GMs that go out and purchase the scenarios themselves, I have a handful of GMs that I print out scenarios and materials for them so they can GM (and then I collect those materials back per guidelines). When it comes to organized play in game stores, there are options available to remove any barriers based on cost.