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A number of scenarios keep giving out fusion seals that your character needs in the next scene.
The authors are either toying with the players or, more likely, don't realize that fusion seals take 24 hours to kick on and are thus useless for the purpose the scenario is clearly including them for.
I'm more inclined to go with the scenarios intent to let them work. As it is in the rules fusion seals serve no purpose: they're supposed to be easily swapable but as it stands a permanent enchant is cheaper and faster to move around.
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I'm struggling with this issue too. If I felt at liberty to do so, I would handwave it that these are special geo-locked seals that activate immediately but are generally useless outside of the zone (for pseudo-bafflegab reasons) unless they have the 24-hour attunement period. But for SFS, I don't know if I should apply them RAW and make them non-functional (amping up the difficulty of the scenario) or instead do what the scenario writers clearly intended . . .
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A number of scenarios keep giving out fusion seals that your character needs in the next scene.
The authors are either toying with the players or, more likely, don't realize that fusion seals take 24 hours to kick on and are thus useless for the purpose the scenario is clearly including them for.
I'm more inclined to go with the scenarios intent to let them work. As it is in the rules fusion seals serve no purpose: they're supposed to be easily swapable but as it stands a permanent enchant is cheaper and faster to move around.
I'm fairly certain it's simply that the authors don't realize the 24-hour limit. Though I am surprised they keep showing up even though comments about the seals in SFS scenarios have been made for over 7 months now.
The 24-hour limit does serve a purpose in overall game design. There are some fusions (like blasting) that can only be used once per day. The designers don't want people swapping fusion seals after every encounter. (See: mnemonic vestment in Pathfinder.)
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It's also been suggested we're all reading the rule wrong.
Removing a fusion seal and transferring it to a new weapon takes only 1 minute and does not require any specific skill training, but the fusion doesn’t function until the seal has been in place on a weapon for 24 hours.
This particular sentence is talking about what happens when you remove and transfer a fusion seal, not necessarily what happens when you apply a fusion seal, which has never been used, for the first time, or so the argument goes.
Reading it as only applying to transferred fusion seals and not first applied fusion seals may solve the issue, since you are not usually finding fusion seals on weapons already you are finding them unattached. It also solves the question I've had as to why this 24 hour restriction isn't a separate sentence in the description and is instead in a sentence about removing and transferring. If it was a general rule for fusion seals when first applied why wouldn't they make it its own sentence in the part about cost?
It would also explain why they continue to figure in scenarios as if they can be used despite this being a known issue for months.
Starfinder Society Developer
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Before this goes any further and people start dragging out pitchforks... yes this thread is something I'm aware of. Generally, we want the equipment in a scenario to match what gets received on a Chronicle Sheet, so including pre-fused weapons can create a bit of a disconnect, especially when it comes to how we try to make sure encounters have specific values that give us our total credits for a scenario. Conversely, we have to be careful about adding in fused equipment, because certain weapons might not appeal to a variety of character builds.
One issue I want to address, that seems to come up here, is the prevalent thought that the seals introduced in scenarios are intended for immediate use by the PCs...
I'm also surprised by the earlier commentary of concern on how frequently this is occurring. Given the most recent scenarios (up to #1-21) to offer seals were #1-10, #1-14, and #1-15. I'm honestly more concerned that these three scenarios and one earlier scenario all provide the SAME fusion seal. That is something I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for in the future.
For those of you playing in Adventure Paths and are finding this situation; just note that those are written outside the scope of Organized Play. If there's issues with those adventures, it's not something I can immediately address beyond a friendly poke to my pals in the Starchamber AP teams. As far as discussions to change the mechanics on how weapon fusion seals work, that would be something to bring up with the Starfinder Design team, and isn't something that is specific to Organized Play.
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Its happened at least twice
the PCs with a cache of equipment hidden in the communications
bunker: two static arc pistols, two standard taclashes, a tactical
arc emitter, a merciful fusion seal (6th), four doses of compsikania
anti-venom (see page 9), four mk 2 serums of healing, and two mk
1 adaptive serums (Starfnder Alien Archive 71). In Subtier 5–6, the
cache also includes a static arc rifle and two mk 2 adaptive serums
(Starfnder Alien Archive 71)
So if someone says please bring my feathered dinosaur back alive and then hands over a fusion seal specifically designed to bring em back alive it would seem like you're supposed to use it.
A probable example
There's an anchoring fusion seal, which is really really handy as the very mobile boss will attempt to run away on you
I can understand that getting something you can't immediately use is disappointing, but to suggest that we're putting these in to "taunt players" is a bit of a stretch.
Right. That didn't seem likely. Hence an alternative: you're supposed to activate them immediately. People didn't read the fine print, the system is new, and it slipped through. The players turn them on no big deal.
I'm more than willing to open pitchfork emporiums but that isn't the case here. Sorry if that didn't come through as clearly as I thought. I was laying down some track in front of a derail from another thread.
I'm honestly more concerned that .....
That and some of the specificity of the things that are spelled out as earning you infamy would make me wonder what kind of parties they've been playing with if i didn't know which kind of parties they'd been playing with...
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The most notorious instance of the writers not understanding fusion seals is, in fact, in an AP. In Incident at Absolom Station,
But yes, not written for society play.
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One issue I want to address, that seems to come up here, is the prevalent thought that the seals introduced in scenarios are intended for immediate use by the PCs...
At least locally, that absolutely is the perception with recent scenarios (slightly less so with earlier scenarios). The circumstances under which you find the seals lead you right to the conclusion.
1-14 has a ton of problems with its merciful seals, including the fact that the PCs can “pop them off by spending one minute working on them.” Or, you know, just spend a swift action to turn it back to lethal (something every player pointed out).
It’s one thing to find an axiomatic seal on the corpse of an Abadarian priest. It’s something else to be told “go kill some demons!” then get handed an axiomatic seal. Maybe the intention in either case was just to provide loot on the chronicle, but the second case feels like a pointless tease.
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So, what's the consensus? Does the 24-hour limit apply? I've got to run Star Sugar Heartlove!!! on Saturday night and kind of need to know :)
Its a little redundant in that one because
However, Songbird Station has a massive magical
feld that prevents lethal damage within the auditorium, making
Ofcer Wilson’s job nothing more than a legal formality
So whether you want to include the ultra exlcusive posh box seats where the party needs to lay the beat down within the effect as "within the auditorium" is up to you. Just remember to forget about it when the party is fighting the robot.. :)
Contributor
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It's also been suggested we're all reading the rule wrong.
Now this is an argument I can get behind.
After this post, I went back into my core and read the whole section again, and can't find any other relevant mentions on how applying fusions/seals that go against this. Because it fits the scenarios better (and benefits players), I think this is the interpretation I am going to take, unless a developer clarification is posted going forward.
Good catch.
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Hello,
As the author of 1-15 Save the Renkrodas, I'd like to back up Thursty on this.
Though it does seem like a let-down to not be able to use it right away, I chose a seal for the following reasons:
1) This is something I thought the NPCs in the area would have around, just in case they needed to temporarily adapt a different weapon. In this case, temporarily means for a week or two before leaving the area.
2) I wanted to draw attention to the fact that fusion seals exist, specifically merciful seals that can allow a PC to do non-lethal damage with a variety of weapons, not just stun/electric weapons. I think it's a good idea to get one and put it on your "old gun" when you upgrade so that you've got a reliable source of non-lethal damage just in case you need it.
3) I knew that I was also giving the PCs a variety of other gear specifically designed to deal with the issue at hand. I wasn't worried about a "useless" piece of loot.
4) I thought it would be useful to get on the chronicle sheet, making it available starting at level 4 (Character Level+2 for availability). This means that low subtier players could gain access to something they could use for a long time, making it a better investment of credits.
I hope this helps clear things up.
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First let me say I really liked save the renkrodas. I'm just trying to explain why people feel like they got baited and switched if the fusion seals don't turn on in the scenario.
2) I wanted to draw attention to the fact that fusion seals exist, specifically merciful seals that can allow a PC to do non-lethal damage with a variety of weapons, not just stun/electric weapons. I think it's a good idea to get one and put it on your "old gun" when you upgrade so that you've got a reliable source of non-lethal damage just in case you need it.
Fusions are great. Fusion seals though...
The merciful fusion is great. I have it on both of my characters: after accidentally discovering how brutal starfinder is to NPCs when the DM has the npc death and dying rules set to Tarantino my star shamans first purchase was a merciful flame throwing pistol. My saranite envoy uses a crossbolter partially because it could have merciful on it right out of the gate.
But the seal system just doesn't work. They are in a really weird design space in that.. well they don't really have a design space. They are more expensive than a regular fusion, and oddly enough take more time to transfer than a fusion and can't even plug and play from one weapon to another as well as a fusion.
Far from showing players "hey aren't these things great" players first impression of fusion seals is "those things that don't do anything" . and "that thing that got my hopes up and then dashed them" or "that thing i was looking forward to and then the mean dm stopped from working with his rules lawyering"
4) I thought it would be useful to get on the chronicle sheet, making it available starting at level 4 (Character Level+2 for availability). This means that low subtier players could gain access to something they could use for a long time, making it a better investment of credits.
There is very little if any reason to buy a level 6 merciful fusion seal.
A level six merciful infusion seal costs 1144 credits
Putting a merciful infusion on a level 2 gun costs 360 credits
moving it from a level 2 gun to a level 4 gun costs 340 credits
Moving it from a level 4 gun to a level 6 gun costs 520 credits
For a total of 1220. Okay, so you laid all your money out at once AND you didn't listen to the church of abadars sermon about delayed gratification being the key to financial success then you saved a few credits, but that merciful fusion seal is junk once you have your level 8 gun, whereas the fusion can save you 1150 credits on your next upgrade (or more if you make the will save...) And yes you can leave the fusion seal on your old gun but you can leave the fusion there too.
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So, what's the consensus? Does the 24-hour limit apply? I've got to run Star Sugar Heartlove!!! on Saturday night and kind of need to know :)Its a little redundant in that one because
** spoiler omitted **
But it's not necessarily redundant because
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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As far as Star Sugar... depending on the route, there ARE other fights where the seal could be handy.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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But it's not necessarily redundant because ** spoiler omitted **So, what's the consensus? Does the 24-hour limit apply? I've got to run Star Sugar Heartlove!!! on Saturday night and kind of need to know :)Its a little redundant in that one because
** spoiler omitted **
A weapon with the merciful fusion often hums pleasantly when
at rest and makes soft, airy musical noises when it is used to
make an attack. The magic of this fusion subdues the damaging
effect of the weapon it is added to. While this fusion is active,
the weapon’s regular damage becomes nonlethal damage. If the
weapon deals two types of damage, both of the damage types
become nonlethal. You can activate or deactivate the merciful
fusion as a swift action.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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First let me say I really liked save the renkrodas. I'm just trying to explain why people feel like they got baited and switched if the fusion seals don't turn on in the scenario.
2) I wanted to draw attention to the fact that fusion seals exist, specifically merciful seals that can allow a PC to do non-lethal damage with a variety of weapons, not just stun/electric weapons. I think it's a good idea to get one and put it on your "old gun" when you upgrade so that you've got a reliable source of non-lethal damage just in case you need it.Fusions are great. Fusion seals though...
The merciful fusion is great. I have it on both of my characters: after accidentally discovering how brutal starfinder is to NPCs when the DM has the npc death and dying rules set to Tarantino my star shamans first purchase was a merciful flame throwing pistol. My saranite envoy uses a crossbolter partially because it could have merciful on it right out of the gate.
But the seal system just doesn't work. They are in a really weird design space in that.. well they don't really have a design space. They are more expensive than a regular fusion, and oddly enough take more time to transfer than a fusion and can't even plug and play from one weapon to another as well as a fusion.
Far from showing players "hey aren't these things great" players first impression of fusion seals is "those things that don't do anything" . and "that thing that got my hopes up and then dashed them" or "that thing i was looking forward to and then the mean dm stopped from working with his rules lawyering"
4) I thought it would be useful to get on the chronicle sheet, making it available starting at level 4 (Character Level+2 for availability). This means that low subtier players could gain access to something they could use for a long time, making it a better investment of credits.There is very little if any reason to buy a level 6 merciful fusion seal.
A level...
I agree with this line or reason, and regarding finding them as interesting loot, thus far me and my players just found it rather dissapointing - or confusing when it came to Star Sugar Heartlove.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I had a couple hours of sleep and would like to suggest something like this, to make them more exciting for SFS without having to change the rules.
This is just a slightly changed version of the Ammo Caddy
Fusion Expert (Ally Boon)
A skilled fusion expert follows you around, ready to move your fusion seals with impressive speed.
Prerequisites: Tier 1
Cost: 2 Fame
Benefit: Once per adventure, you can spend Resolve Points to move a weapon seal from one weapon to another weapon, or attach an unattached fusion seal to one of your weapons. Moving a fusion seal in this fashion costs 1 Point of Resolve for every 4 item levels of the target weapon.
Instead of the normal 24 hour attunement period, the seal becomes active after 10 minutes.
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I would gladly buy a fusion like this, it would still cost players resources, but finding fusion seals could be pretty exciting.
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Characters trained in Engineering or Mysticism can also install fusions, if necessary (for instance, if the PCs find an unused fusion as part of a treasure cache, or in the case of a character who used Mysticism to craft a fusion)
So if there needs to be something installed on a weapon in a hurry, officer wilson just needs a correspondence course in kumbaya and a bag full of pheonix down. They'd also make more interesting bundles of treasure. It would just need a note/clarification that like any other treasure it goes away at the end of the scenario whether it was installed or not.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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What about adding this to the Guide:
Characters can install fusions found during the scenario to their weapons. However, unless they pay credits equal to the fusion's cost, the fusion expires at the end of the scenario.
In other words, unless you pay for it, it's a consumable.
This solves at least part of the conundrum: if a writer wants to put in a weapon ability the PCs will need (the church of Iomedae is kitting you out to kick some demons around) then he can, without problematic 24 warmup time.
It also avoids balance concerns with once per day powers on seals, because we're not using seals.
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That aside: I think Andrew Hoskins and Thursty are missing a point about how players read fusion seals in scenarios. You might have just intended them as treasure, but to players they look like something put in there to be used, just like any other suspiciously appropriate consumable you find before meeting the boss.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Sebastian, I love it.
Hmm
Thanks, I have also received feedback that this really does not need to be an ally boon, it works just as well as a magic "Fusions seal rub and buff" unspecific slotless boon.
The main advantage of this approach would be that people who don't care don't have to make a minimal investment, while not actually having to change the rules that might be fine outside the usual scenario timeframe.|
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Yeah, I'm not such a fan of even more ally boons. I like my hireling ally boon, but I've played in quite a few scenarios where we were cautioned to slot our high society ally boon.
The upshot of that is: you shouldn't be taking Guild Guide boons as if they're something you can count on slotting all the time, they're more of a fallback in case nothing more awesome from a chronicle is available.