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Still not necessarily sold on using Bodyguard, but it is something to keep in mind I suppose. using Enlarge Person on the Ninja in order to fight a Storm Giant seems.... counter-intuitive, but there have been stranger stories and circumstances I'm aware xD So yeah, I'll keep Redirect Force on the table for sure.
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One thing I feel I should point out regarding Greater Trip, or more specifically, taking Unbalancing Trick to get Improved Trip as a bonus feat:
"At 6th level, she is treated as if she meets all the prerequisites of Greater Trip (although she must take the feat as normal to gain its benefits)."
That means Greater Trip is in fact legal as early as 7th level. Regarding what you said about Bodyguard, I do admit I somewhat agree. +2 bonus to AC just seems too small to be worth taking for a feat. Something I'd consider putting on a Training enhanced weapon, but otherwise... I admit I just don't see the benefit with such a small bonus.
These are a lot of options and they're all valid, but could you help me pinpoint where you'd try and fit them or at what point you'd get them? Keeping in mind the Racial Heritage feat and Tengu Wings, at minimum. Lovable Scoundrel and Scavenger's Eye both have their appeal, but at the same time seem rather niche. Giant Raven Form... well it's awesome and would be helpful for transport, but I'm not downright married to it. Would like to get it though.
Granted, just having all of these options in mind will be incredibly useful on the occasion I end up having to adapt or alter the build due to the circumstances of the campaign and how things develop. The more I know, the more I'll be able to look into and pick from.
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Unbalancing Trick lets you qualify for Greater Trip at 6th Level Rogue/Ninja, not at character level 6. So the earliest with 2 levels of monk would be 8th, which is also when you hit +6 BAB anyway.
Part of why I suggested making sure you are good at the thing you want to do is because this build does too many things. That’s also why the versatility of Forgotten Trick is helpful. You don’t need to take all the options when you can pick them up only when you need them.
Bodyguard really only becomes worth it when you can increase the bonus it grants. At a minimum that means taking a trait to make it a +3 or +4, but can mean buying benevolent armor, taking cavalier or Paladin levels, taking saving shield, and other options to make handing out AC your thing. This build is already going to be Feat starved. Tacking one or two more on that are competing for AoOs and only provide a minor benefit is probably not a good idea. Keep in mind you have to use an AoO for each attack against your ally. Not just one per ally. If Dex isn’t your main combat stat, even with Combat Reflexes you’re looking at 4 or 5 AoOs/Round. Greater Trip and other options will eat into that.
I need sleep, so can’t put together a full build right now, but I’ll look at it tomorrow.
Unbalancing Trick lets you qualify for Greater Trip at 6th Level Rogue/Ninja, not at character level 6. So the earliest with 2 levels of monk would be 8th, which is also when you hit +6 BAB anyway.
Part of why I suggested making sure you are good at the thing you want to do is because this build does too many things. That’s also why the versatility of Forgotten Trick is helpful. You don’t need to take all the options when you can pick them up only when you need them.
Bodyguard really only becomes worth it when you can increase the bonus it grants. At a minimum that means taking a trait to make it a +3 or +4, but can mean buying benevolent armor, taking cavalier or Paladin levels, taking saving shield, and other options to make handing out AC your thing. This build is already going to be Feat starved. Tacking one or two more on that are competing for AoOs and only provide a minor benefit is probably not a good idea. Keep in mind you have to use an AoO for each attack against your ally. Not just one per ally. If Dex isn’t your main combat stat, even with Combat Reflexes you’re looking at 4 or 5 AoOs/Round. Greater Trip and other options will eat into that.
I need sleep, so can’t put together a full build right now, but I’ll look at it tomorrow.
Yeah, that's all pretty valid for sure. I am looking at focusing on Str/Dex/Cha (in that order) so my Dexterity won't exactly be lacking, but you definitely are making a point. Regarding ShroudedInLight's build, I might replace the Smoke Bomb Trick with Forgotten Trick in that case.
However, given I'll have all the prerequisites for it and won't be able to take Greater Trip until it would be legal, I'm wondering if Unbalancing Trick wouldn't be a waste of a trick and I'd be better off just taking Improved Trip as a feat.
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Generally, I'm of the belief that most tricks that grant feats are better than most other tricks. Forgotten Trick and Vanishing Trick are exceptions. Or if you want something that adds onto sneak attack. Most of the others are situational, but a lot of the feats you can pick up work most of the time. It just depends on which options you are looking at. With as many race feats as you are looking to take, though, whatever feats you can take as ninja tricks will help make the build possible.
If you want to fit any of the other options in at all, at the point you're getting Giant Raven Form or Lovable Scoundrel, the casters in the group have 7th, 8th. and 9th level spells. Those feats aren't worth it then. You could prioritize the Tengu feats, but it's really going to cut into your combat effectiveness on a class that already struggles to keep up.
Ok, here are a couple of quick skeletons of builds, prioritizing different things.
NT2: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Double-chained Kama)
3 M1: Combat expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes
4 M2: Dodge, Evasion
5: Improved Feint
NT6: Rogue talent (unbalancing trick)
7: Tengu Wings
NT8: Forgotten Trick (Can use FT->CT->Greater Feint or Greater Trip)
9: Improved TWF
NT10: Vanishing Trick
11: Greater Feint (Can also use FT>CT>Greater Trip)
Adv. NT12: Invisible Blade
13: Greater Trip
Adv. NT14: Opportunist
15: Tengu Raven Form
Adv. NT16: Feat: Iron Wil
17: Improved Iron Will
18: Improved Evasion
19: Twist Away
20: Entanglement of Blades
Why Weapon Focus? Ninja's have terrible accuracy. TWF ninjas are even worse. Let's look at 9th level, where you pick up Improved TWF. Assume STR 22 (18 starting, +1 4th, 8th, and +2 Belt), +1 weapons (maybe with a +1 quality on top):
+7 [BAB] +6 [STR] +1 [enhance] -2 [TWF] = +12/+12/+7/+7
CR 11 creature has avg AC: 25 That's an average for the CR. Max will be higher than that
So even with a flank, you're only hitting 50% of the time with you main attacks, 25% with -5 attacks. Feinting helps, but only against creatures with a lot of dex. And you're not likely to feint when you are flanking, since you don't need it for sneak attacks.
A Barbarian starting with the same strength is at +9[BAB] +8[STR] +1[enhance = +18/+11
So Weapon Focus helps. Buying the +1 competence bonus Ioun stone helps. Getting someone in the party to cast Heroism on you helps. Basically, you need all the help you can get, just to hit as often as a normal melee character. And if you want to actually land your 4 or 5 (with ki) or 6 (with haste) attacks a round, you need those extra bonuses.
Or, my recommendation so that all those feats to help with saves don't come online too late, pick two of the three between feint, trip, and invisibility. Whichever 2.
NT2: Vanishing Trick
3 M1: Dirty Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes
4 M2: Dodge, Evasion
5: Improved Trip
NT6: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Double-chained Kama)
7: Tengu Wings
NT8: Forgotten Trick (Can use FT->CT->Greater Trip)
9: Improved TWF
NT10: Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense
11: Greater Trip
Adv. NT12: Invisible Blade
13: Iron Will
Adv. NT14: Opportunist
15: Improved Iron Will
Adv. NT16: Feat: Twist Away
17: Giant Raven Form (May not be worth it here)
18: Improved Evasion
19: Open Feat
20: Entanglement of Blades
Training weapons could help fit in another combat feat or two when you can afford them, but there are other +1 enhancements that are very valuable on a ninja. Menacing is great for your off-hand weapon (or one end of the kama). Now when you flank, you get a +4 bonus instead of +2. Tripping from Flank becomes +6 with Dirty Fighting (if you skip feinting). You could also just throw it on an Amulet of Mighty Fists, if you want, since you have Improved Unarmed Strike.
Still, a Training weapon would let you pick up Greater Trip at 8th or 9th without having to use your Forgotten Trick on it. And that would let you push Iron Will up to 11th, where it will do you some good for a significant number of levels.
One other feat to mention to potentially pick up with forgotten trick is Dedicated Adversary. This is my fallback for my ninja and for brawlers with Martial Flexibility. Pick a type (and subtype if humanoid, outsider, etc.) and gain a +2 to-hit and dmg against them. It's better than studied target, and on a ninja it's a swift action.
One last thought. After you get Opportunist at 14th level, Ninja really becomes uninteresting. You might be better off finishing out with Monk or a different class. Sneak Attack scaling is really the main thing you're getting at that point.
Eh, I like Bodyguard a bit too much. Its just me trying to stuff supportive stuff into all my builds to help the party.
Forgotten Trick is good, BUT its also very expensive. It'll cost you basically twice as many Ki points reducing the number of times during a day you can do other things like Boost your speed or make an extra attack at your full BAB. You'll also wanna talk with your GM about taking Combat Trick using Forgotten Trick. They'll probably be ok with it, but I've seen people get weird on this sort of thing before. (Point them to the Brawler class that can use Martial Flexibility to do the same thing if their not).
In general, Feats will be worth more to you than your Ninja Tricks. Which is why I'd be fine using a Ninja Trick to take Unbalancing Trick despite the fact that you'll be qualifying for it.
I REALLY like Smokebomb though, especially paired with Foggcutter's lenses. Not many creatures can see through non-magical smoke, and from 2 squares away you'll have Total Concealment allowing you to qualify for Sneak Attacks. Not even True Sight sees through Smokebomb, because its really there.
I'd also disagree about Feint vs Trip priorities. We wanna be tripping ASAP, because the Prone condition imposes some NASTY debuffs that will ensure we land hits. It takes 18+ dexterity on your opponent for Feinting to be more efficient than Tripping. Indeed, the reason my build skips out on both improved and greater feint is because Prone is the condition that will be helping my allies land their hits, not Feinting.
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I wasn’t saying feint should take priority over Trip. I was giving an example build with feint taking priority, but you could easily go the other direction. I just didn’t want to paste all the different variations. Just saying pick your priority and make sure you’re good at the first thing before committing too much to the second thing.
The Forgotten Trick Combat Trick ... trick... is dependent on getting a Ring of Ki Mastery, which you should be able to afford at 8th level, and lowers the cost of Forgotten Trick to 1 Ki (plus the cost of the Trick you pick up).
Definitely clear all of the interactions with your GM.
Comparing Feint and Trip based solely on the bonus they give to-hit doesn’t work. Feinting gives you sneak attack. Tripping doesn’t. If you’re getting sneak attack elsewhere, you don’t need feint. If you aren’t, you’ll do more damage with two-Weapon feint and 4 or 5 sneak attacks than you will with an AoO and no sneak attack. If you want to be a support build and are good with someone else doing the damage, the tripping is probably a better option as causing the target to provoke from the two-handing Barbarian and granting a bonus to-hit and the target having to stand up after is fantastic. However tripping gets hard at high levels, and more creatures will be outright immune to Trip (flying, no legs, two sizes larger, etc.) than are immune to feint (pretty much just things with no intelligence). The roll to feint, even when you’re taking a penalty for low intelligence or monstrous creatures, will still usually be easier than beating their CMD.
Anyway, the two tactics are used for different things. If they were meant to accomplish the same thing, there would be no reason to have both.
Well I now know what the party will consist of, so maybe having that information to take into account will be helpful for determining and solidifying the build a bit more? The party will have:
-A Samurai who intends to multiclass into Vigilante (Magical Child) and Swashbuckler. ....Just... Don't even ask, I'm not clear what he's going for.
-A normal Swashbuckler
-A Druid. New player, intent on hanging back and being more support-like in their style
-A Paladin looking to focus more on a nonlethal cudgeling style (complete with the appropriate style feats)
-A really indecisive player, who last I checked is going Witch but considering Wizard.
-And then me, going the Ninja.
Hopefully having that information will be helpful?
Just gonna try and give this a little bump. The advice I've gotten in this thread so far has been spectacular and I can't say thank you enough, but I'd love to be able to refine the build just a bit more so it can turn on faster and I might be able to work in just a tiny bit more flexibility. Or at least synergy with the group.