Familiar: Secret "Benefits" of a Familiar ... and a few doubts!

[Skarm]

Hi all,
I was wondering a few things about familiars:

a) Familiars start with Intelligence 6+ and, as such, since Animal creature type lists "no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)"...they are in fact of the Magical Beast type.

However...there is any official source that lists this clearly and openly?

b) If familiars are Magical Beasts, the Bestiary also states:
"A magical beast possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision 60 feet."

...so familiars get Darkvision 60 feet on top of their normal abilities?

c) If familiars are Magical Beasts:
"...can have Intelligence scores higher than 2 (in which case the magical beast knows at least one language, but can’t necessarily speak)." ...so the character can speak to his familiar and get understood, right?

d) Familiars get the skills in their animal description as "Class Skills", right?

e) Familiars must be trained (as animals) and require Handle Animal checks or can be asked to do things (as free action)?

f) With magic item there are the rules in Organized Play FAQ, but, in theory, could I buy mundane equipment size for a familiar?
Like a tiny backpack? :D
Would that be possible also in PFS?

g) A Tiny familiar shouldn't have its attack modified by Dexterity by default?

Thanks,
Skarm

[SorrySleeping]

A) No normal animal has an int of 3 or more, familiars are not normal animals. The regular animal has its normal int, but because it is tied to a humanoid it gets special skills and abilities.

B/C) Familiars are no magical beasts, do not gain any of the benefits magical beasts do.

D) As for skills, they use their own ranks (if they have any) or their master ranks in skills plus their own modifiers. The link below goes more in detail.

E) Familiars do not require Handle Animal checks. That is for normal animals or Animal Companions that don't have tricks yet. Again, the link has more detail, but look for "Sentient Companions" under Aspects of Control.

F) For equipment, you can but a tiny backpack can hold next to nothing and you have to make sure the animal has the correct equipment slot. Not all animals have all equipment slots like humanoids.

G) Familiars by default use Dex or Str to attack, whichever is greater. They still use strength to damage unless they somehow gain a feat (they usually don't).

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/

[Anguish]

"It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type."

That doesn't technically say that the familiar becomes a magical beast, so you don't get to apply any additional type traits to the familiar beyond what the wizard rules say.

To be clear, on a statblock, it'd say that the familiar's type is "magical beast" because that's required for parsing how effects interact with it. As in, if someone casts a spell on the familiar that only effects animals, well, the type line that says "magical beast" tells you that this statblock doesn't qualify. But the familiar's type doesn't change for anything beyond effects that may impact it.

Darkvision isn't an effect; it's a trait that magical beasts have, which - again - a familiar is not.

[Dajur]

Be careful with the quotation marks. Quotes around the word Benefits can mean something entirely different....

[Dajur]

No handle animal check required for familiars. In fact, it is a very good idea to increase an animal companions intelligence to 3+ so that they can understand common. You also don't need to use handle animal anymore to give them orders.

[Belafon]

Dajur wrote:

In fact, it is a very good idea to increase an animal companions intelligence to 3+ so that they can understand common. You also don't need to use handle animal anymore to give them orders.

Be careful with those kind of statements too :)

There is no rule that says this, though it is a frequently used house rule.

In Pathfinder Society play it is categorically NOT correct. There is a Society-specific FAQ that says animals are still animals and must be handled regardless of their intelligence score. (Magical Beasts do not need to be handled if they have a 3+ Int)

[Azothath]

there aren't any secret benefits to familiars other than what GMs allow. They aid low level casters and tend do die off in high level encounters. PCs try to leverage their abilities and action economy.

One thing that has been championed in PFS is codifying exactly what familiars can or cannot do. Familiar Folio opened the door and expanded RAW in this area. Trading out Weapon Finesse was one of these issues. Extra Slot is also a bummer that got levied on familiars to use any slot past a basic universal shared common set.

=====
Side Chat on animals and INT scores

I'd have to agree with Belafon.

With 3 as a minimum to understand common, creatures don't automatically learn common when they acquire an intelligence score of 3 (understanding basic concepts conveyed using common language is different than writing and understanding poetry or a cooking recipe written in common). That is done as a wide brush to simplify things in the game. It also doesn't mean they have anything interesting to say or can convey complex ideas. The game is very PC centric.

[maouse33]

The secret benefit they CAN give if they are "always helping" is AID ANOTHER. Get a +2 to all your rolls by having them help and get a +2 when they roll 10+.

[blahpers]

Belafon wrote:

Dajur wrote:

In fact, it is a very good idea to increase an animal companions intelligence to 3+ so that they can understand common. You also don't need to use handle animal anymore to give them orders.

Be careful with those kind of statements too :)

There is no rule that says this, though it is a frequently used house rule.

In Pathfinder Society play it is categorically NOT correct. There is a Society-specific FAQ that says animals are still animals and must be handled regardless of their intelligence score. (Magical Beasts do not need to be handled if they have a 3+ Int)

You are correct. Animals that reach Int 3 automatically learn to understand a language. Since it's your animal companion and you're picking its advancement options, you can certainly pick Common. However, they're still animals, and you still need Handle Animal checks to ensure that they do what you want. You can talk to them instead, but there's no guarantee that they'll listen. (Try ordering around a two year old child and you'll see what I mean.)

[blahpers]

Ack, just realized that this thread was about familiars!

Familiars count as magical beasts for pretty much all purposes. You don't need to use Handle Animal on a familiar.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Remember: a familiar understands a language you speak from the outset. It also begins with an empathic link where it can share some basic feelings with you. The thing I think is "secret" is - how well can something with an Int 6 communicate back?

Consider; many barbarian builds in these forums begin play with an Int 7 and they can speak Common. This suggests to me that at a -2 Int penalty you can still speak a complex language. A familiar doesn't have the right vocal chords or mouth and what not to actually speak directly to their master/mistress, but this doesn't preclude them from responding in ways that someone that understands/speaks Common with a -2 penalty from Int would.

By this I mean yes/no questions, scratching out letters, responding to colors or tapping out numbers, etc. A familiar at level 1 might be able to fly ahead, scout for a specific foe, then if they note said foe be able to tap out how many of them there are, or how many wing-beats it took them to reach a perch to see the enemy by, or nod a wing to indicate that yes, they're currently armed, etc.

There is NO RAW to support what I'm saying so I apologize for posting this conjecture in a Rules thread. I find however that I'm often reminding spellcasters in my own game that they have a helper animal, with the relative intelligence slightly less than a Tatzlwyrm (a dragon capable of making ranger-style traps to catch foes in forests) and all the physical abilities and limitations of its type, such as talons or a mouth to pick things up with, etc.

Beyond this however familiars are only hyper-intelligent Animals, considered Magical Beasts only to rule on what affects them. They do not gain Feats, stat raises, skill ranks etc over time b/c they do not advance in HD or levels. They do gain use of their owner's skill ranks and certain Archetypes grant them other benefits.

In this manner, the chief utility for a familiar has always been as a helper and sometimes scout at low level. Once it becomes mechanically ill-advised to put them in harm's way, even with buff spells running, this is generally when most folks look to swap them out with the Improved Familiar feat or relegate them solely to a +2 on Skill checks from Aid Another and call it a day.

To this I submit the humble Scarlet Spider.

This familiar begins play with a Dex of 21 but a Str of 3. Once you hit level 3 or 4 and get the ability to cast Alter Self, your spider can assume Humanoid form. If you pick a Small humanoid with a Natural Weapon then your familiar can make ranged attacks at your BAB +5 from Dex, though it's Str is still only a 7.

With the right gear however that is a decent secondary Ranged attacker defending the spellcaster while they do what they do. As levels advance, the creature's forms can grow even more interesting. Since Dex will always dictate it's bonus to hit with Ranged or Natural attacks these will always get that nice, 21 Dex starting point, as high or higher than any of the Improved familiars.

[Avoron]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Remember: a familiar understands a language you speak from the outset.

Wait, is this a thing??

[blahpers]

Avoron wrote:

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Remember: a familiar understands a language you speak from the outset.

Wait, is this a thing??

Not unless the familiar is a raven. Usually a wizard cannot speak with and understand her familiar until 5th level. Until then, barring external factors, they are limited to communicating via empathic link.

[Avoron]

blahpers wrote:

Avoron wrote:

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Remember: a familiar understands a language you speak from the outset.

Wait, is this a thing??

Not unless the familiar is a raven. Usually a wizard cannot speak with and understand her familiar until 5th level. Until then, barring external factors, they are limited to communicating via empathic link.

I was going to say, if that was true I've been missing out on a huge part of low-level familiar potential.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Sorry; let me clarify. Under Aspects of Control on the SRD it states:

Sentient Companions wrote:

a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won’t necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.

Under "Intelligence" it states:

Intelligence wrote:

Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3.

Add in that a familiar shares it's owner's skill ranks, one of which may be Linguistics, which in turn means that, per rank, it understands 1 language by virtue of the RAW on that skill, and also the fact that a standard, non-archetype familiar begins with an Int 6 which, again, is the same penalty (-2) as some PCs use as their dump stat and still understand language... and I felt that RAI justified that a familiar would thus understand it's owner's speech.

Bear in mind that I am explicitly NOT stating that a familiar has the ability to outright converse with it's owner. That is the level 5 ability Speak with Master wherein it states that the familiar and owner can communicate verbally as if through a shared language. What I AM asserting is that the familiar understands the language of the owner and can respond to it in non-verbal ways, within the limits of something with animal instincts and a 6 Intelligence score can.

If "Aspects of Control" quoted above is not RAW than once again I apologize for posting these statements in the Rules forum.

[merpius]

Having an Intelligence of 3, though, does not guarantee that it understands any language. However, this little bit: "Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category" is where the gold is at. That directly states that this is the case for familiars.

I don't think, however, that it implies any sort of return communication; only acting as you tell it; that could translate to a sort of communications, though. For example, if you tell it to go aroudn the corner, have a look, then come back, it coudl do that. If you then say "raise this paw if there are at least 2 people around there" then it could rais eits paw or not... which is communicating... but very limited. I don't, however, think it implies that it could, of its own volition, go look around the corner, come back, and draw you a map of everythign there or whatever; that seems too much like real communication, which woudl invalidate the level 5 benefit.

[Diego Rossi]

blahpers wrote:

You are correct. Animals that reach Int 3 automatically learn to understand a language. )

Not what the blog say.

Quote:

Regardless of the source, an increase in Int comes with all of the standard bonuses, such as additional skill points. Once a creature's Int reaches 3, it also gains a language.

.....

There is also the issue of learning the language. The rules are mostly silent on this front, due to ease of play for PCs, but a GM should feel safe in assuming that it might take years to actually teach Common to an intelligent animal. All of this, of course, assumes that the animal even bothers to fill that language slot. Possessing the ability to use a language does not necessarily mean that such an ability is utilized.

When an animal intelligence reach 3 it acquire a language slot thanks to its intelligence, but it don't learn one automatically (unless the effect that gave it the language say that explicitly). Most GM will hand wave that, but it need to learn it normally. It would require 20 days.

PRD wrote:

[New Language

You can spend time to learn an additional language. It takes 20 days of training to gain a bonus language, and these days need not be consecutive. Each language requires a trainer who shares a language with you and knows the language you want to learn, or a book written in a language you know that explains the basics of the language you want to learn.

The new language does not count toward your maximum number of languages (racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks). You can train this way only a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus.

[blahpers]

The blog contradicts itself (in the very quote block you posted, no less), and it contradicts the long-established principle of language acquisition upon qualification. It's handwavey by design. If an already-intelligent animal can spend a skill point on Linguistics and instantly learn a language, there's no reason that the same rule wouldn't apply to an animal becoming intelligent and thus gaining the language mentioned above. In the case of a direct rules contradiction, I'll err on the side of long-established practice.

Regarding the second quote: That's from the rules for learning an extra language above and beyond those automatically granted by your Intelligence plus Linguistics ranks. That does not apply in this case--you gets the Intelligence, you gets the language, same as if your PC had put a point into Linguistics.