Abilities maintained through polymorph

[Master of the Dark Triad]

Hi,

I plan on making a cavalier that, with the Order of the Beast, transforms his tiger mount into a Giant Falcon (a large animal, which should work with the level 8 ability). I was wondering if the grab and pounce abilities afforded a level 7+ tiger companion carry between polymorph forms.

Thanks for the help.

[Volkard Abendroth]

No. Grab and pounce are abilities granted by form.

Sidenote: a character using Beast Shape II to assume the form of a tiger gets grab and pounce as part of the assumed form.

So, if you had a giant Falcon for an animal companion, your cavalier could give it grab and pounce by turning it into a tiger.

[Master of the Dark Triad]

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

No. Grab and pounce are abilities granted by form.

Sidenote: a character using Beast Shape II to assume the form of a tiger gets grab and pounce as part of the assumed form.

So, if you had a giant Falcon for an animal companion, your cavalier could give it grab and pounce by turning it into a tiger.

So, the polymorph subchool rules mention this paragraph about extraordinary abilities in regards to poly effects:

"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."

First of all, obviously it grants last decision to the GM, but it seems like pouncing and grabbing aren't so form-dependent that they wouldn't transfer from a tiger to a bird of prey. Clearly both forms can grab things, and I think there's a strong argument for calling a falcon/eagle's ability to swoop down and "attack" its prey (often by grabbing) as something of a pounce. Do you think this is within the confines of the rules, given, of course, that one gets GM permission?

[Mallecks]

Ask GM, you have the necessary references to make your case.

If you were just looking for some opinions, I would say that grab might be OK. Pounce is a no. I would consider the diving attack of a bird of prey to either by a Charge or flyby attack depending on the bird.

In an argument I had with my GM about animal companions using weapons, I looked up videos of real life examples. I wanted an ape that fought with a hammer. That led me to some articles about apes that were fishing, doing laundry, engaging in prostitution, all types of stuff. I found footage of a chimpanzee grabbing a huge branch, used it to intimidate his enemies, and then attacked one of the other chimpanzee with it. (He still said no.)

For a more rules based answer: Check out a Garuda. It has a special ability called Swooping Pounce that is pounce for a bird. Seems unlikely that it would keep its pounce.

Look for other birds that have pounce?

[Master of the Dark Triad]

Mallecks wrote:

Ask GM, you have the necessary references to make your case.

If you were just looking for some opinions, I would say that grab might be OK. Pounce is a no. I would consider the diving attack of a bird of prey to either by a Charge or flyby attack depending on the bird.

In an argument I had with my GM about animal companions using weapons, I looked up videos of real life examples. I wanted an ape that fought with a hammer. That led me to some articles about apes that were fishing, doing laundry, engaging in prostitution, all types of stuff. I found footage of a chimpanzee grabbing a huge branch, used it to intimidate his enemies, and then attacked one of the other chimpanzee with it. (He still said no.)

For a more rules based answer: Check out a Garuda. It has a special ability called Swooping Pounce that is pounce for a bird. Seems unlikely that it would keep its pounce.

Look for other birds that have pounce?

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.

[blahpers]

A human sorcerer polymorphing into a tiger via beast shape ii or greater gains pounce and grab as a result. It stands to reason that the sorcerer gains those abilities from the tiger's form. Conversely, a tiger sorcerer polymorphing into a human (we're playing Pathfinder: The Jungle Book, right?) would lose said abilities.

[Meirril]

Going to follow up and point out that most flying creatures receive Flyby Attack rather than Pounce.