| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The race this belongs to, the Orani, are Xenophobic in nature, keeping themselves apart from other races (for various reasons).
Uniquely Superior: Each Orani is unique. This is emphasized and fostered from a young age, and while this lends to boosting a child’s abilities, it leaves them unable to interact well with those outside of their race. Orani suffer a -4 penalty on Sense Motive and Diplomacy checks with those of other races, but each Orani (lesser) gains a +2 bonus to two ability scores.
Personally, I think I overdid it with the penalties, but since I designed this to be used with the Race Builder, I gave it the Prerequsites: Xenophobic, and gave it a RP cost of 0.
I used this reasoning:
2RP = +2 skill bonus
-2RP = -2 skill penalty
-8RP = -8 skill penalty
4RP = +2 ability score bonus
8RP = +2 ability score bonus to two abilities
The race builder is notoriously unbalanced. The value of any race trait can only really be judged when looking at the entire race for balance.
If I had never mentioned the Race Builder, I highly doubt you would have made that comment.
With all the Variant Tiefling/Dhampir Heritages allowing you to pretty much choose what +2/+2/-2 spread you want, I've become more lax with homebrew Ability Score Modifiers.
Sure, give your race a flexible +2/+2 Ability Score Modifier. You were gonna customize your race for your own character anyway, so it doesn't matter if I somehow convince you to stick with a simple flexible +2 or a fixed +2/+2/-2 spread.
What's inherently unbalanced is that you're extrapolating data from the already broken Race Builder to give your race a skill penalty as a trade-off for increased Ability scores.
For example, Say I made a modified Human with a -2 penalty in Linguistics. I use those extra 2 RP to take the Fixed Bonus Feat trait.
Now my race has the same RP cost as a normal human, but starts with an extra feat and a penalty in a skill I'll never use. Is this modified human not just better than the normal human?
And what if I had made that penalty -8, and picked up three Skill Focuses and Improved Initiative for the same RP cost?
If I had never mentioned the Race Builder, I highly doubt you would have made that comment.
If you had not mentioned the race builder I would have said this trait can only be judged in the context of the entire race.
In this case, the character in question will most likely not speak any language except their own (and maybe one more) and will not be interacting with any PC's or NPC's of their own race. It's a setting specific race and the character will be forced to interact with everyone, even potential companions, with these penalties.
I wanted to create something that would show how bad they would be with dealing with other races, or just understanding them, without giving them a massive hit to an ability score (which could limit what classes the player may want to be).
Like the idea of the skill penalty rather than charisma penalty for this purpose.
If I can throw my hat into the ring. I have one issue with this race.
It's pretty much entirely designed to be a Murder Hobo's Dream. I wouldn't say it's full on munchkin, but the issue is that it kinda is.
It sounds like a player saying "Oh I take a -4 penalty to these 2 skills that I'll never use"
Granted I will admit that I think the fact that Sorcerers are all inherently better at communicating and persuading people despite the possibility that they look like they are literally part demon and that that negativity does absolutely nothing for them. but the issue is that if you're not in a campaign where diplomacy is a BIG DEAL these penalties will do nothing to disadvantage your character, especially if you're going to purposely make it that he never talks to the other characters.
I'd have to see the entire race. Not all individual racial traits are created equal.
-4 to two skills to gain +2 in two attributes is broke, and particularly so if there's no indication that these benefits are replacing the usual racial adjustments (i.e., so double-stacking would permit 20s at 1st-level).
-4 to two skills to gain +2 in two attributes is broke, and particularly so if there's no indication that these benefits are replacing the usual racial adjustments (i.e., so double-stacking would permit 20s at 1st-level).
20 at 1st level is already possible (via good rolls or point buy), so I do not see how this even matters.
If I can throw my hat into the ring. I have one issue with this race.
It's pretty much entirely designed to be a Murder Hobo's Dream. I wouldn't say it's full on munchkin, but the issue is that it kinda is.
It sounds like a player saying "Oh I take a -4 penalty to these 2 skills that I'll never use"
Granted I will admit that I think the fact that Sorcerers are all inherently better at communicating and persuading people despite the possibility that they look like they are literally part demon and that that negativity does absolutely nothing for them. but the issue is that if you're not in a campaign where diplomacy is a BIG DEAL these penalties will do nothing to disadvantage your character, especially if you're going to purposely make it that he never talks to the other characters.
As I already said, it's a setting specific race, where talking and dealing with other races is going to happen quite often, even other potential PC's/allies.
It's meant to be a somewhat powerful race, similar to Drow, but not Drow Nobles. This is in line with the races of other characters.
-4 to two skills to gain +2 in two attributes is broke, and particularly so if there's no indication that these benefits are replacing the usual racial adjustments (i.e., so double-stacking would permit 20s at 1st-level).20 at 1st level is already possible (via good rolls or point buy), so I do not see how this even matters.
OK; 22, then.
This is in line with the races of other characters.
Why ask "is this racial trait balanced" if you've already made up your mind? The response has been overwhelmingly "no."
As an aside, regular Drow are really not very strong, IMO. Con penalty? RP hindrances? No spank you.
-4 to two skills to gain +2 in two attributes is broke, and particularly so if there's no indication that these benefits are replacing the usual racial adjustments (i.e., so double-stacking would permit 20s at 1st-level).20 at 1st level is already possible (via good rolls or point buy), so I do not see how this even matters.
Meant to say 20.
Anyway, a starting 18 costs 17pts in point-buy. --A starting 20 (if possible) would cost (an extrapolated) 26pts. Trade two skills to get 9 build points? Oh, hell yes. And that's just one of the two stat bumps the homebrew trait is offering?
As worded in the OP, it's better than any *feat* currently in the game, by a mile.
@Egeslean05
Could you clarify something about this race?
Is this +2/+2 ability score modifier in addition to the normal ability score modifiers of the race? Because that's the impression many have gotten from your first post, which is also the reason people are so opposed to it.
If someone asked me if I wanted to play a Dwarf that started with an extra +2 in two ability scores of my choice in exchange for taking a -4 penalty in two skills, then I'd probably say "yes" every single time.
So is that the single racial trait the race has? If I choose to play an Orani, do I only get the +2/+2 ability scores and a penalty in two skills? Because if that's all there is to the race, then it's not overpowered, but underpowered. The same can be done with a standard human, but without the skill penalty.
@Egeslean05
Could you clarify something about this race?
Is this +2/+2 ability score modifier in addition to the normal ability score modifiers of the race? Because that's the impression many have gotten from your first post, which is also the reason people are so opposed to it.
If someone asked me if I wanted to play a Dwarf that started with an extra +2 in two ability scores of my choice in exchange for taking a -4 penalty in two skills, then I'd probably say "yes" every single time.
So is that the single racial trait the race has? If I choose to play an Orani, do I only get the +2/+2 ability scores and a penalty in two skills? Because if that's all there is to the race, then it's not overpowered, but underpowered. The same can be done with a standard human, but without the skill penalty.
Admittedly even I hadn't thought about that.. Things might change just a bit with that information in mind..
Which brings us back to some context that many people have said. WE NEED TO SEE THE WHOLE RACE IN ORDER TO RATE IT.
For humans a +2 +2 flexible is taken in relation to a Flexible Bonus Feat, which granted it gains a lot more power for being literally anything, but looking at raw numbers if we compare it to skill based feats you can get a +3 in one skill with a feat.
I mean if it's the base number I could see somewhat of a more balanced race if it's the base stats (Which I assumed it was the base anyway). Though I do feel that comparing this to not just Humans but to other 'flexible' races is a good idea.
I wrote it up in a Google Docs: here
I wrote it up in a Google Docs: here
Upon finally seeing everything, I will speak.
Yes, this ability is overpowered. The potential for a +4 to Dex and Int at character creation make them the far to powerful as things like rogues (or other dex based classes with emphasis on skills) or Int-based/single attribute dependent casters. If they did not recieve a +2 already from their racial base (example they had guaranteed -2 Con, or Cha, and then +2 to two of choice only) then I don't think it would be too bad on it's own.
However, that said, they're a race with perfect flight, and 2 flight feats out of the box, which is also massively too powerful for a starting character. No low CR threat has anything to deal with a PC flying out of reach and raining either ranged attacks or spells down on them. Their penalties to stealth and grapple mean nothing when they can escape artist and fly away like it's nothing (when you also consider their overwhelming stat modifiers, eg. +6 from max dex, not including skill ranks).
All in all, this race is a min-max munchkin's dream. You take a handful of penalties, most of which negate themselves, or aren't relevant to most character types, in order to overwhelmingly stack the deck for what you do build the character for.
My suggestion: scrap most of their penalties, and make the flight available through racial feats with level requirement (similar to sylphs or tengu). You could phrase it that the material plane hinders their abilities and they require training to get back to their standard. Then again, make their base stat boost a -2 to one thing with their option on 2 +2s, which can be used to negate their penalty bringing them to the human average or on the 2 things their class will use and make them an ideal choice for any class.
As a side note, I would also strongly advise against immortal, in that it results in the ability to make a character in his thousands for, again, no penalty and a huge boost to spellcasting abilities for single ability dependent characters.
Oh, and another thing.
Is this race supposed to be played with other standard races (such as humans) in the same game? Because most people will assume that's the baseline, and that's what they'll compare this new race to.
To paraphrase Syndrome; "If everone is OP, nobody is".
You take a handful of penalties, most of which negate themselves, or aren't relevant to most character types, in order to overwhelmingly stack the deck for what you do build the character for.
As a side note, I would also strongly advise against immortal, in that it results in the ability to make a character in his thousands for, again, no penalty and a huge boost to spellcasting abilities for single ability dependent characters.
What are you looking at? What of their penalties negate themselves?
I only see penalties that negate bonuses, such as the penalty to stealth that being Small gives.
Delicious is a -2 penalty to Escape Artist which is equal to a -4 dex penalty, and that basically negates what you used for an example (yes it's against creatures with a bite attack, but many do have a bite attack).
Susceptible is a -3 against poisons and disease (which is basically a -6 to Con in this regard), and they already have a -2 to Con.
Sweet Scent is an additional -2 Stealth (not negated by anything the race has) and it makes them easier to track.
What you said about Immortal though, I had not thought of that. Specifically that a player may create a stupidly old level 1 character. I've never encountered that in any game I've be a part of, nor would it have been allowed.
Also, as I've said before (more than once), it doesn't matter what class the character is, dealing with other races is going to happen, and they will be rolling Sense Motive and Diplomacy.
As the type of player I am, I would enforce this myself both in role-play and roll-play. As the type of DM I am, I would enforce this because that's part of this race. For instance, even if the party had a 'Face', I would make this player roll, and if they fail the checks, they'll misinterpret what's going on or interject something, or something else so that bungle things in some way, large or small.
Is this race supposed to be played with other standard races (such as humans) in the same game? Because most people will assume that's the baseline, and that's what they'll compare this new race to.
I already answered this. No, all the other races are on similar levels.
Though, IF someone does choose a standard race, they'll gain a bonus for free to even it out.
What are you looking at? What of their penalties negate themselves?I only see penalties that negate bonuses, such as the penalty to stealth that being Small gives.
Delicious is a -2 penalty to Escape Artist which is equal to a -4 dex penalty, and that basically negates what you used for an example (yes it's against creatures with a bite attack, but many do have a bite attack).
Susceptible is a -3 against poisons and disease (which is basically a -6 to Con in this regard), and they already have a -2 to Con.
Sweet Scent is an additional -2 Stealth (not negated by anything the race has) and it makes them easier to track.
In order, yes a -2 is equal to a -4 dex penalty to that stat, however it isn't. All their other dex based abilities are still at full effectiveness, and a single skill point, like the one they will inevitably get from their int bonus, can be put into escape artist. If it's a class skill, they get a +4. One point and the penalty is gone, the same applies for their diplomacy and sense motive penalties (and if those skills aren't class skills it is very unlikely a player would be taking them, so the penalties are meaningless). Back to escape artist though, with base +2 dex, the penalty is effectively halved, and as a small race with a CMB penalty escape artist will always be their grapple escape choice (needing to make up a 2 penalty rather than 3, and one that can be negated by 1-2 skill points). Stealth in the long and short of the bunch of modifiers you've given is the same. However, both don't really matter when you consider the larger picture:
They fly. They fly 10ft faster than most races can walk. They're playing with vertical advantage, able to constantly be out of reach, and on top of that, faster. So they will never likely be making any escape artist checks because nothing can catch them. Even other flying creatures, which to gain this advantage need to A: fly, B: have a bite attack, and grab/grapple abilities C: have enough speed to catch the orani... On top of all that, they have to be able to keep up with the two feats orani have. They're enormously too mobile for such penalties to matter. Why hide when you can outrun anything?Moving away from their Dex-based abilities. A total potential -4 to poisons and disease is a weakness on paper. The strongest poison however is DC 26. Diseases and poisons are one of the weakest abilities in the game outside of highly precise builds. They trail off quickly, so in theory early levels it might hurt in the few instances it comes up. However, such things are almost always contact or injury. With small, and a potentially high boost to dex, they're looking at AC 11+up to 6 on dex builds, plus armor at level 1. Add that to the flight fun I described prior and again, there will be few if any instances where they will be in a situation.
There was a line in one of the Palladium hero books about overly specific weakness for superhero characters. "Deathly weak to praying mantis urine." When you consider all of their abilities and not just the numbers, you see most of them just don't matter. You can't even really sneak up on them as they're only vulnerable 2 hours a night (as all nights are dim light to darkness, or even turning the lights off in their room). The restriction will never apply unless they're on the plane of fire, or another place where there's constant light.