| BadWolf0312 |
First I know most people here will just call shenanigans with what I am to ask for help with and that is fine I completely understand that reaction. A small amount of back ground info. I have for the past 15 years been playing d&d/pathfinder with the same 2 people we take turns as gm and our games due to limited gaming time can take years. I am the min/maxer of the group and when I am gm I like for my players to be...Heroic (at the same time my games are not easy even with this power i have almost killed them a half dozen times, i love swarms lol) and they would never be allowed to use there characters in other games but the people I play with are very good at not abusing my impulses even tho I like to through in home-brew (epic)magic item just to see what will happen lol.
Now the point. for the last year or so i have been working on a god of knowledge built library filled with all the collected knowledge of many world (i know op). Also let me point out this place is not easy to fine at all. I leave clues scattered around the world some of the big ones very hard to find but always in areas they will be so they at least have a chance. Each time the find a clue they get a bonus on research about this library. The finding of this place is akin to Test of the Starstone but you dont become a god your just really freaking op. Once a player is in the library they have access to incredible knowledge and as such with enough time can gain powers beyond what a normal character would ever achieve. There is a back story for this place but for this post its not really needed.
The rules for this place i have set so far.
While inside the characters do not age (time stops) or need food or sleep.
There are also 5 crystals that allow them to teleport to basically anywhere (i know op) when they go from location to location they must always return to the library first.(don't lose that)
Each time a player is about to lvl they have they have to option to sack that lvl for points spend in the library (the sack of the lvl is meant to show to use of time spent in the library learning the new stuff for there character) in order for them to lvl again they must reach the lvl after the one they sacked.
example: Say a player is about to go from 10 to 11 well they can sack that exp and go back to base exp for 10 and use the points gained to power up the character. for them to lvl again the must gain enough exp to go from 10 to 12. once at 12 they can gain the lvl or repeat the process this time having to reach 13 from base 10 exp.
Any ability, power, feat, stat increase, and spell(class or non-class) they want to gain must be usable by there current lvl. (so if they want the really good stuff they need to start gaining lvls at some point)
What i hope to have at some point is a system of rules that will work for any combination of classes and number of players.
Why am i stuck, well here is the questions i am having trouble with.
How many points do they get each time and at what lvl?
How many points will the new "stuff" cost? (+1 to atk/def will be pretty cheap but magical flight?)
Do i have a set number of "stuff" they can gain or just leave it open?
Any advice or guidance would be helpful.
For the people that have read through this wall of text vomit i thank you.
| DianaBlake |
Alright, so some of your info is pretty vague so I'm mostly going to post my initial reactions and thoughts to what you have so far. Hopefully it'll open up some of the idea but, worst case scenario, it tells you exactly what direction you don't want to take things in.
How many points do they get each time and at what lvl?
This being the hard to find place it is and being as powerful as it has the potential to be I'm assuming you won't really have to worry about lower level PCs finding the place super early on so my initial thought is to use X amount of experience points per point granted.
Let's go with the level 10 to 11 idea. The difference in medium progression is 50,000 experience. Let's say 1 point for every 10k sacrificed. This will give them 5 points and return them to base xp for lvl 10. However, I would say that they cannot sacrifice that same 50k experience again after. Instead they would need to make their way to lvl 11 naturally and from there they can get to 12 and sacrifice the 65k between those two levels. That way you encourage your players to get out and play for what is effectively two levels each time they've made use of the library.
How many points will the new "stuff" cost? (+1 to atk/def will be pretty cheap but magical flight?)
Essentially, the easiest thing to do is treat the library as if it were allowing your PCs to enhance themselves in the same way that they would enhance their weapons or collect magical items. It's easier because you have a place to start in those enhancements and items themselves... For stuff like this, I like to utilize as many existing mechanics as possible. If rules already exist that are similar you'll face a lot less confusion from your players.
Since it seems like they can use points for almost anything let's start with the simple stuff like +1 to attack. If we were doing weapon enhancements you'd be looking at a couple thousand gold but here we're giving them a +1 for any weapon they pick up. While I'm assuming this will be a bonus similar to Weapon Focus and not like an actual magical enhancement it is still potentially so powerful I'd say it wouldn't be unreasonable to equate that bonus to 5x what you would pay for a magical equivalent on a single weapon. 10,000gp for 10,0000xp means they'd need to spend 1 point.
For bigger things let's, again, look at what you'd pay for an item that does something similar. In this case, Wings of Flying is a good substitute as they give the full effect of the fly spell and not just partial like the lesser form of the item. Cost to create the item is 27,000 gold pieces. If we use the same math as the +1 attack and multiply by five they'd need to sacrifice 135,000 experience to get enough points to gain permanent magical flight.
13.5 points seems like a lot but this will limit when players are able to get certain enhancements and ensure that they're using their points responsibly or at least, trying to think ahead. If you only allow them to sacrifice the experience they've gained once as I suggested then the total amount of points they can attain on medium track progression from level 10 to level 20 is about 350. (3,600,000 - 105,000 =3,495,000/10,000 = 349.5 points)
Doing it this way leaves things wide open for players to do almost anything they want while also giving you a standard to judge point price by. They could say... have the ability to magically disguise themselves at will for a mere 3 points. Or gain a single bane type for the same as a +1 bonus.
I would also suggest not letting your PCs "upgrade" enhancements they've already made to themselves without penalty or at all. For an example let's look at like: a +2 Belt of Giant Strength that with a cost of 2,000gp would cost a PC a mere 1 point. Later on they want to upgrade to +4 but argue that since they only paid 1 point for the +2 upgrade that they should be able to do the same and stack them. Just like with the magical item equivalent you would need to pay more for the higher enhancement. You can't just purchase the same item twice and have them stack. So, the belt of strength +4 would cost 4 points.
Players might also try to upgrade each of the three physical traits individually for a total cost of 3 points. Instead of allowing this I would limit them to the slot mechanic for equipment. This way you can't have the equivalent of three different belts on a PC and they'll need to instead look into using a template like the commonly used item: Belt of Physical Perfection that would cost them 4 points to enhance all 3 physical stats by +2 at once. But say, later on they want to go for a belt of +6 that would cost a PC 38.5 points. Instead of letting them take the original use of 4 points and having it roll over to the 38.5 point cost I would put a rule in place that if they change an existing enhancement that the points spent previously are lost and cannot be regained. The reason for this is that it will force them to think ahead and not use the points frivolously or situationally.
To limit just how powerful a player's attack abilities can get I would say to also treat them exactly as you would a magical weapon. Things like the item based enhancements like the Wings or Hat of Disguise won't affect their total but weapon and armor enhancements would be limited as they are already in the rules. No more than +10 and each subsequent enhancement costs more just as if you were upgrading a weapon or piece of armor. Same as with the belt example, changing or altering existing enhancement will lose the used points. This keeps the players from saying "Oh, we're going to go fight some fire giants so I'm going to get rid of my Bane aberrant and shocking enhancements and change them for bane giant and ice." as they'll essentially lose the previously spent points and limit their future effectiveness.
Do i have a set number of "stuff" they can gain or just leave it open?
Doing things based on equivalent items and enhancements leaves what kind of "stuff" is available pretty open to the players and depending on just how creative they get you can have your hands full. They could use the same rules and price points for creating unique magical items to create unique enhancements for themselves. Like your fighter gaining a taste of immortality by using the Magic Item Price Guidlines to figure out the cost of creating an enhancement based on an item with the Age Resistance spell and continuous effect.
The checks and balances of lost point for changed enhancements and limiting them to only a certain number of points they can ultimately achieve ensures that you won't have to deal with a mechanic that is too open ended and they won't have unlimited access to more and more "stuff" as time goes on.
I hope all of that made sense...
| Meirril |
My notion on how to do the entire system would be different. When you sacrifice a level you get you're next level in points. So level 10 character gets 11 points for not leveling.
So what are points good for? Casting spells. You can spend points to let you cast any spell. It costs 1 point per level of the spell. You cast at your character level or the minimum level to cast the spell, whichever is higher. You can cast the spells in the Library or you can hold 1 spell to cast later. You spend the points when you memorize the spell and you can hold it till cast or you try to use the library again.
This will let them spend 9 points to cast wish. That is very powerful, but lots of advice on how to handle wishes exist.
Also allow them to freely use the retraining rules with no gold cost here. And if they try to create magic items, the library should let them count as having the prerequisites and even skip the skill roll or give them a spellcraft with ranks equal to their level with a +5 competence bonus for using the library as a reference.
For a plot hook, I'd have the library "ask" to scan their minds the first time they enter. If they cooperate give them their level in points (firs time is free). Then start having the Library ask them to investigate dangerous places and beings. The Library collects information using lots of abilities, but strange events and powerful beings can confound the Libraries abilities to collect information. The Library rewards points for completing its tasks.
As far as the Libraries teleportation abilities, I'd restrict it to at least a shelf of books anywhere. Any collection of 30+ books that are organized is good enough. Otherwise being able to teleport in and out of an Empire's treasury would get rather abusive.