Hello,
I have finally found a question that a forums search did not answer. (doesn't mean its not out there, just didn't see it)
Game is pathfinder, all core material allowed, no 3rd party without DM approval.
Spell in question is baleful polymorph (from PC to PC to turn them into a bird or other flying critter)
My group and I are in a sticky spot in a battle we can't win. Time to run away.
We have an out for all but 1 character.
I would like to know the official rule on what happens to someone who is polymorphed into an animal with an intelligence of 1 or 2.
From the rules I could not tell if the transformed player would be able to continue to make rational decisions.
do they:
A) become that animal and no longer care about what they were before or that they NEED TO RUN AWAY
B) retain all memories and plans but lose the ability to communicate and can RUN AWAY to regroup and get the polymorph dispelled.
Edit: I put this in under rules but if someone feels this needs a different category please let me know.
Hmmm, I'd say he'd retain his memories and personality, but have the Int of an animal, so would only be able to make decisions based on that.
I'm basing that on the fact that the transformed creature retains class abilities (provided they are not Ex, Su, or Sp), so a fighter retains all feats and martial prowess, even if they are a songbird now.
Baleful Polymorph wrote: If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. So, did the PC make the second save?
I agree that the intelligence drops to that of the animal (1 or 2) but I was only able to find reference to a few things regarding what you can or cannot do with various low intelligence scores.
From the SRD:
"Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects their spellcasting ability in many ways. Creatures of animal-level instinct have Intelligence scores of 1 or 2. Any creature capable of understanding speech has a score of at least 3. A character with an Intelligence score of 0 is comatose. Some creatures do not possess an Intelligence score. Their modifier is +0 for any Intelligence-based skills or checks."
"If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3."
This might be read to indicate that you are just an animal now, which begs the question, whats the point of retaining ANY of your skills/feats?
If we look at the descriptor for wisdom, we see a nod to rational thought.
"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for monks and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score. A character with a Wisdom score of 0 is incapable of rational thought and is unconscious."
PCScipio wrote: Baleful Polymorph wrote: If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. So, did the PC make the second save? We have not tried it yet, we are looking for an out but we may face a permadead character here. (we ended the session on a bit of a cliffhanger)
The hope is that the save is made and all is well, however the character is a fighter so will saves are not so great. My question is around the worst case scenario, the save fails and intelligence drops to 1 or 2.
As an added note, our GM allows us to intentionally fail saves if we wish to. This allows us to target our friends and allies with potentially harmful stuff if they are willing. Not often used but occasionally someone gets to take one for the team in some fashion.
Blue Rabit wrote: Spell in question is baleful polymorph (from PC to PC to turn them into a bird or other flying critter)
My group and I are in a sticky spot in a battle we can't win. Time to run away.
We have an out for all but 1 character.
I would like to know the official rule on what happens to someone who is polymorphed into an animal with an intelligence of 1 or 2.
From the rules I could not tell if the transformed player would be able to continue to make rational decisions.
do they:
A) become that animal and no longer care about what they were before or that they NEED TO RUN AWAY
B) retain all memories and plans but lose the ability to communicate and can RUN AWAY to regroup and get the polymorph dispelled.
They would retain memories, but they wouldn't have the capacity to fully understand them. It would in their subconscious, so they'd have a "gut" feeling that they needed to flee. Wouldn't know why, exactly, but they might know the direction to flee to.
The big challenge would be interactions with the party, unless they had really good memories with the party, they'd probably flee from party members too. Because, again, they don't have the capacity to review the memories, just the overall impression that the memories give on a given friend or foe. Especially challenging if the party smells of blood/death or is transformed into predatory creatures.
INT 1 or 2 is plenty for a creature that isn't reliant on needing language, or book smarts, or mechanical understanding, or martial arts, or any other technology. Their body will move just fine and they should have the smarts enough to recognize danger and allies.
On the other hand, things like a sword being a seperate object from the human wielding it will surprise them if they drop or throw it. They'd see the sword and the warrior as one creature that transformed into two creatures when the sword was dropped. Language won't get through, though they might understand the feelings behind the language.
A dog has an intelligence of 2 and can be trained to understand basic commands. Ravens have the same and can be trained as well.
I don't see why someone being turned into a bird wouldn't be considered trained to listen to the party. Sure, it would need to be basic commands, but "go home" or "come" should definitely work. (Or some such command, depending on how the rest of the party is escaping.)
Posit: The second will save is failed and the target creature has animal intelligence.
If a fireball or such goes off next to a dog or canary what will they do??? Probably flee! Also remember that animals will not attack unnatural creatures such as undead (they require special training). They could remember that their ally or mate is there and try to get them to flee also, sounds like another will save to me...
A polymorphed PC is very likely to hang out with his party as he recognizes them as friends or members of his pack, etc.
Pax Miles wrote: They would retain memories, but they wouldn't have the capacity to fully understand them. It would in their subconscious, so they'd have a "gut" feeling that they needed to flee. Wouldn't know why, exactly, but they might know the direction to flee to.
The big challenge would be interactions with the party, unless they had really good memories with the party, they'd probably flee from party members too. Because, again, they don't have the capacity to review the memories, just the overall impression that the memories give on a given friend or foe. Especially challenging if the party smells of blood/death or is transformed into predatory creatures.
INT 1 or 2 is plenty for a creature that isn't reliant on needing language, or book smarts, or mechanical understanding, or martial arts, or any other technology. Their body will move just fine and they should have the smarts enough to recognize danger and allies.
Do they retain their skills? My thinking is yes (and while those skills may be hampered by lowered stats if they fail their second save)
Baleful Polymorph wrote: If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren't extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. Now, I interpret this to include skills as a benefit derived from class. So, while you may have an Int of 2, you could still have ranks in Knowledge skills. This would imply to me, that they are able to recognise their former party members, but not necessarily able to communicate with them.
Pax Miles wrote: On the other hand, things like a sword being a seperate object from the human wielding it will surprise them if they drop or throw it. They'd see the sword and the warrior as one creature that transformed into two creatures when the sword was dropped. Language won't get through, though they might understand the feelings behind the language. I don't think so, my dog is never surprised when I drop something, unless he's sleeping and it makes a noise, nor does he have any problem separating my hand from the treat in it.
@bhampton: Your dog is a trained animal. Every pet, is a trained animal. Not the same to suggest that a trained animal is the same as a regular animal. I know pathfinder doesn't do this outside of ranger companions, but I do think that most pets, like trained dogs, should actually have INT 3 or 4.
I don't know, I think it would be fun to RP the baleful polymorph, but in terms of reducing the intelligence, I'd defer to the other spell that drops INT to 1: Feeblemind
Pax Miles wrote: @bhampton: A pet is a trained animal by it's very nature. Just by being around you for it's life, it has been trained to know the difference between you and held objects. I'd also argue that most pets are at least seemingly more intelligent than other animals, if only because they don't need to invest learning into hunting and gathering skills, and have instead learned about people which makes them seem more intelligent to people.
I do think that good diet of most pets should make them smarter than animals that spend their lives starving in the wilderness or an urban setting.
Ever see the birds with 1 foot? Very common in urban settings around spring. I suspect that they are eating one of their feet due to being so hungry in the previous winter. Just no food in most urban settings during the winter, and many businesses use that time to "evict" birds that have nested in their building or property. I suspect that the mental health of these birds isn't very good, and a more intelligent bird would probably kill themselves. But they survive and loss of a foot isn't too bad for bird.
Crows are among the smartest animals, able to solve complex problems using tools, Kea (an alpine parrot) as well are able to use tools to solve problems, both are wild. I would think that predation and traps are a more common cause of birds with 1 foot than self-mutilation.
I deleted that last post because I thought it was going too dark. Perhaps reply to the one I didn't delete?
Pax Miles wrote:
I don't know, I think it would be fun to RP the baleful polymorph, but in terms of reducing the intelligence, I'd defer to the other spell that drops INT to 1: Feeblemind
I do agree with the use of feeblemind as a base though, and it does state that it knows who it's friends are. Whether bumping Int to 2 allows the use of Int skills is another question, I'm sort of thinking yes.
If you turn them into a skittish animal, and there's a fight going on, they'll probably get the heck out of dodge. They should be fine, but you might need to track them down with Scrying later.
At least, that's how I'd rule it as a GM. Your GM might rule it differently. So I'd ask them how they'd rule it before casting the spell. The wizard who understands the spell well enough to cast it should be able to predict the likely outcome. But again, that's how I'd rule it as a GM.
Maybe show your GM this thread?
bhampton wrote: I do agree with the use of feeblemind as a base though, and it does state that it knows who it's friends are. Says "Friends," not party members. That was one of my points from before, is that the lower intelligence isn't going to know about complex things like the mission they are on or why this group formed, but they will recall feeling good or bad about creatures encountered, so if Party isn't a group of friends (quite often the case for the characters to be RPed as just working together for a common goal), then the low INT transformation may make it hard for them to trust eachother.
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Pax Miles wrote: bhampton wrote: I do agree with the use of feeblemind as a base though, and it does state that it knows who it's friends are. Says "Friends," not party members. That was one of my points from before, is that the lower intelligence isn't going to know about complex things like the mission they are on or why this group formed, but they will recall feeling good or bad about creatures encountered, so if Party isn't a group of friends (quite often the case for the characters to be RPed as just working together for a common goal), then the low INT transformation may make it hard for them to trust eachother. Fair point on that. And in that regard if they weren't friends and not trusted, the character might be thinking "what the....you turned me into a *whatever it was*?" and be bolting from that alone.
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