| VarisianViscount |
Maybe this was obvious and only I just recently realized it, but the manifestation of most shaman spirits says that “at 20th level, the shaman becomes a spirit of [name of spirit]”. Doesn't that mean that a 20th level shaman can grant spells to other shamans and possibly themself?
If so, then they get the freedom of an arcane caster (i.e. no higher power saying “no” and denying their spells) simply for reaching 20th level. A cleric needs to be at least mythic tier 3 and take Divine Source for the same effect, and must advance to 9th tier if he wants all his spell levels. Druids are outright stuck with worshiping nature.
Seems pretty unique among the full divine casters. What do you think?
Quintin Verassi
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I don't think that's how that works. If you read further, it states specifically:
Manifestation (Su): Upon reaching 20th level, a shaman undergoes a transformation as she manifests as a pinnacle of her main spirit. The nature of this manifestation depends on the shaman's spirit, and is described in the spirit's entry.
So manifestation says that what you get is limited by the Spirit's entry. Just as an example, Battle (literally the first spirit on the list):
Manifestation: Upon reaching 20th level, the shaman becomes a spirit of battle. As a full-round action, she can make a full attack and move up to her speed (either before or after the attacks). Whenever she scores a critical hit, the attack ignores damage reduction. She gains a +4 insight bonus to AC for the purpose of confirming critical hits against her. If she is reduced to fewer than 0 hit points, she does not die until her negative hit point total exceeds double her Constitution score.
Nothing in this indicates to me that they gain the ability to grant spells or become Gods/Major Spirits/Other things capable of granting divine spells.
| VarisianViscount |
True, but technically everyone and their grandmother can be a witch patron, as they are defined as vague and mysterious. This leaves the exact details up to the GM, such as the BBEG turning out to be the witch's patron. Or the old cat lady down the street with only 3 levels of commoner.
Similarly, "shamans commune with the spirits of the world and the energies that exist in every living thing", so if a shaman is just so much attuned to these energies that they manifest aspects of them (i.e. has reached 20th level), I could certainly see them as being able to grant shaman spells, i.e. manipulate the energies on the behalf of others. What a spirit is is entirely up to flavor after all.
| Quentin Coldwater |
The most important thing here is that deities can revoke their magic. Paladins, Inquisitors, and Clerics can fall if they don't obey their deity. Spirits don't have that clause. Technically, I guess a 20th-level Shaman can grant other Shamans their spellcasting abilities, but they don't get anything for it in return. Also, there are many spirits of <theme>, so that's why they can't revoke your power. Or if they can, there are enough similar spirits that will grant their power, instead.
The main problem is that the term "spirit" isn't as well-defined as a deity. Deities have gotten lore about them, but what constitutes a spirit is up to the GM to decide. If you roleplay that your grandmother is your spirit of Ancestors, displeasing her could cause her to stop giving you spells. But surely there'll be someone in your family tree that is willing to pick up the slack and grant you their power instead. Thematically, something has changed, but mechanically nothing has.
Also, one more thing: how do you, as a player or GM, define "spirit"? I've always seen them as dead creature's souls, hanging around and bothering people, sort of like elementally themed ghosts. But obviously, at 20th level, a Shaman doesn't die, so the term "spirit" isn't 100% correct here. A different explanation is that a spirit is the living embodiment of something. But then again, how smart are they? Shamans seem to have an empathetic link with them, so either they're not that smart, or can't fully manifest in this world. While you, as a Shaman, exist fully in this world, and are sapient.
TL;DR: I think it's mainly an issue of using the same word for different things. A 20th-level Shaman is a "spirit" inasmuch as you are a walking avatar of the thing you represent. Like the Oracle at level 20, you don't become the thing your mystery represents, but a walking embodiment of it. Meanwhile, the spirit that grants you hexes and spells is (IMHO) the soul of something that's passed away, but lingers in this world somehow.
| VarisianViscount |
Good points, Quentin. Yes, it's mostly a roleplay aspect. However, it makes a difference mechanically if you try to throw a spell at the BBEG and it just fizzles out. There won't be enough time to find another spirit before you're killed (since you'd most likely only be able to switch spirits when you prepare spells).
As for what a spirit is in my eyes: while "spirit" can be a catch-all term for incorporeal undead, phantoms, and actual spirits and is used in that way by those characters who don't know better, there is some difference I have noticed across several sources. Incorporeal undead are basically souls that intermingled with the neagtive energy plane, whereas phantoms are souls that intermingled with the astral and/or ethereal planes (hence why they are outsiders instead of undead). Shaman spirits are the "embodiment" of certain things or concepts, such as the spirits of Flame, Lore, or Dark Tapestry (the latter of which might actually be the idle thoughts of Outer Gods and Great Old Ones). And then there are medium spirits, which are actual dead people, or possibly only echoes/imprints thereof, since I'm fairly certain that some of the named legendary medium spirits have fully passed on and don't still exist as a ghost or phantom.
As to the intelligence of spirits: assuming they are just embodiments of things or echoes of people, they still can potentially grant up to 20 ranks in a skill and influence your personality, as per the Spirit Ridden feat. So they are definetly intelligent, and at least have some form of emotions/ideals/goals/etc., but possibly are even less "real" than ghosts or phantoms as far as interacting with the material plane or making their presence known is concerned.
| Mysterious Stranger |
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Just because you become a spirit does not mean you can grant spells. Not all spirits are the same, some are stronger than others. While an oracle of battle may become a spirt of battle they are not a strong enough spirit to grant spells.
Basically you get only what the class ability says you get nothing more. Since the Manifestation of the spirit of battle does not say you can grant spells you cannot grant spells. Unless of course your battle oracle is a 3rd tier mythic character with the path ability divine source. If that is the case it can grant spells regardless of its level.
| Captain Morgan |
Good points, Quentin. Yes, it's mostly a roleplay aspect. However, it makes a difference mechanically if you try to throw a spell at the BBEG and it just fizzles out. There won't be enough time to find another spirit before you're killed (since you'd most likely only be able to switch spirits when you prepare spells).
... Do you expect that would ever happen? Even if the BBEG is your spirit patron, how did you reach level 20 without them revoking your powers already?
What you are suggesting isn't supported by the rules, and you are basically in GM fiat territory. Now, granted, there aren't a crap ton of rules for post-20th level play because the game is meant to be over at that point. Even if you could grant spells to others, they would basically be level 1 shamans that would need to gain XP and level up to reach level 2 and beyond. If your campaign has hit level 20, and you have time left in the game to level up some follower NPCS, and for some reason you aren't just using mythic rules anyway to represent that progress beyond 20... Sure, a GM might let it fly.
You are basically in that part of the campaign where the credits have begun to roll and the characters get some text overlaid over a still image saying what they did with the rest of their lives. "The Shaman went on to grant powers to other Shaman" is fine flavor for all that, just like "The Wizard founded a magical university and revolutionized trade via teleportation circles" or "The Fighter went on to lead a nation." Personally, I think if you are interested in PLAYING in that post credit space, the mythic rules are probably your best bet, mechanically and thematically.