The Baykok Lord from Season of the Runelords Adventure 6 has the following power:
Before you act, each other character must succeed at a Wisdom 9 check or that character may not play cards or use powers during this encounter, and you must succeed at a Dexterity or Acrobatics 12 check or the Baykok Lord deals 1d4 Ranged Combat damage to you.
It also has 2 checks to defeat, both Combat 28. My question is: if two players want to handle one check to defeat each, does the non-encountering character have to beat the BYA Wisdom 9 check to be able to play a weapon (or attack spell) on the check?
Short answer: yes
Here's the sequence as I understand it:
1. Baykok Lord is encountered.
2. Each character (regardless of location) must take a Wisdom 9 check.
2a. Any character that succeeds at the Wisdom 9 check may play cards and use powers during the encounter (which covers both checks to defeat).
2b. Any character that fails at the Wisdom 9 check may not play cards or use powers during the encounter. You'd better hope that the character that encountered the Baykok Lord succeeds at the check, or else they will be relying on help from others.
The inability to use powers includes RotRL Harsk's ability to recharge a card to add to a combat check at another location, RotRL Kyra's bonus against Undead (though by the time you get to AD 6 with her, she should be able to pass a Wisdom 9 check with little/no problem), RotRL Lem's ability to add 1d4 to a check attempted by another character at the same location, etc.
The inability to play cards means that blessings can't be played, bows can't be discarded to add to a combat check at another location, enhancing spells can't be played, etc.
3. The character that encountered the Baykok Lord must take a Dexterity/Acrobatics 12 check.
3a. If the character succeeds at the check, they don't suffer any damage.
3b. If the character fails at the check, they are dealt 1d4 Ranged Combat damage.
4. Check to defeat 1 (Combat 28).
5. Check to defeat 2 (Combat 28).
(One of those checks must be made by the character that encountered the Baykok Lord.)
6. After resolving both checks to defeat, the Baykok Lord deals 1d4 Ranged Combat damage to the character that encountered the Baykok Lord.
Note that the same basic rules apply to the Henchman Baykok, except there's only one check to Defeat (Combat 24).
If I'm wrong about the sequence, someone will be along shortly to correct me.
OK, that's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure. Thanks!
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Short answer: yes
Here's the sequence as I understand it:
1. Baykok Lord is encountered.
2. Each character (regardless of location) must take a Wisdom 9 check.
2a. Any character that succeeds at the Wisdom 9 check may play cards and use powers during the encounter (which covers both checks to defeat).
2b. Any character that fails at the Wisdom 9 check may not play cards or use powers during the encounter. You'd better hope that the character that encountered the Baykok Lord succeeds at the check, or else they will be relying on help from others.
On the 2b, the encountering player doesn't do the BYA WIS check since the ability reads "each other character." The encountering player does the BYA DEX check so they'd just need to have armor or take some damage. Otherwise I think I agree with the rest of your post.
On the 2b, the encountering player doesn't do the BYA WIS check since the ability reads "each other character." The encountering player does the BYA DEX check so they'd just need to have armor or take some damage. Otherwise I think I agree with the rest of your post.
That!
And so the encountering player can play cards on the non-encountering player's check without any problems. I think that's a little bit where my confusion is. I read the power, and it seems like the intention is "no one can help you with your check to defeat unless they make this Wis 9 check", but that's not how it actually works out. It would, if there was only 1 check, but because there is two, it kinda throws a wrench in it.
And so the encountering player can play cards on the non-encountering player's check without any problems. I think that's a little bit where my confusion is. I read the power, and it seems like the intention is "no one can help you with your check to defeat unless they make this Wis 9 check", but that's not how it actually works out. It would, if there was only 1 check, but because there is two, it kinda throws a wrench in it.
Indeed a monster could work the way you had in mind, but IMHO it would be worded something like:
Before your check to defeat, each other character must succeed at a Wisdom 9 check or that character may not play cards or use powers during that check, and you must succeed at a Dexterity or Acrobatics 12 check or the Baykok Lord deals 1d4 Ranged Combat damage to you.
The difference is that "before you act" always refers to the one encountering while "before your check" refers to the one attempting the check.
Only the character who encounters the card may attempt the
check, save for one exception: if a card requires sequential checks,
the character who encountered the card must attempt at least one
of the checks, but any other checks may each be attempted by any
character at the encountering character’s location. While you are
attempting a check against such a card that you did not encounter,
powers that would apply to the character who encountered it apply
to you instead.
If someone else is taking the 2nd check, the BYA power suddenly applies to them now as well. How I would play this is that everyone other than that 2nd character makes another Wisdom 9 check to see if they can play cards during the check, and that 2nd character needs to attempt the Dex/Acrobatics check to avoid the ranged combat damage.
If the same character does both checks, then the BYA checks are only rolled once.
Do we have confirmation that this rule would apply to BYA though? I couldn't find a precedent in the forums.
The way I read this, you are already passed the BYA step. The rules clearly outline First combat step and second combat step. The encountering player no longer has that BYA power apply to them since they took the damage and/or passed it. The key word here is "powers that *would* apply to the character who encountered it apply to you instead." When I read that rule in the past I interpreted it as other, persistent, powers such as "if the combat check invokes the ranged trait, then you are dealt 1d4 damage" or "[Monster] is immune to the poison trait." I understand that "would" is past tense, but the rules don't seem to indicate that this extends to past steps as well.
PS We did end up defeating the Baykok Lord and we had the encountering player take the second combat check just in case.
I think this is the more relevant rule:
Powers: These special rules apply when you encounter the bane. If a bane says an effect happens if or when you do a particular thing, it applies to any character who does that thing. If it limits the things you can do, that limit applies to any character who wants to do those things; however, if the limitation is the result of an action such as playing a card or attempting a check, it applies only to the character who took that action.
This rule is why, when a bane says "Before you act, attempt an Arcane 12 check or you may not play spells that have the Attack trait" it applies to anyone that wants to end up playing spells.
I'm not quite sure that rule applies to the Baykok Lord though. Mostly because the "original" character clearly doesn't have to attempt a Wisdom 9 check, even if they want to play cards or use powers on their own check to defeat.
But I would say I'm not 100% sure.
In a 4-person group with Lem encountering the Baykok Lord, Valeros also at the same location,and Kyra and Lini at other locations:
1) Valeros, Kyra, and Lini all make the BYA Wisdom check or they cannot play cards or powers during the encounter.
2) Lem is dealt 1d4 damage
3) Lem must do either the first or second check, and can use all of their cards and powers.
4) Valeros may do either the first or second check. Based on #1 they may not be able to play cards or powers, so... they probably shouldn't if they fail that check, unless Lem or someone who succeeded at the BYA can make up the gap (nontrivial, but possible)
I miss any quirky edge cases?
Chief Technical Officer
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I think all the confusion is because of the problem that the step "before you act" has a very confusing name. Let's imagine for a moment that that step is instead called "Battle Prep."
The card would then say "In Battle Prep, each other character must succeed at a Wisdom 9 check or that character may not play cards or use powers during this encounter, and you must succeed at a Dexterity or Acrobatics 12 check or the Baykok Lord deals 1d4 Ranged Combat damage to you."
Since Battle Prep is before you even have to consider that there are two checks, "you" can only mean "the person encountering the card," and "each other character" must mean "each character other than the person encountering the card."
So this is the order of events:
Apply Any Effects That Happen When You Encounter a Card. None.
Apply Any Evasion Effects. None.
Battle Prep. Each other character attempts the Wisdom check, then you attempt the Dexterity or Acrobatics check.
Attempt the Check. One of you attempts the first check.
Attempt the Next Check, If Needed. One of you attempts the second check.
...etc.
I think this is the more relevant rule:
Powers: These special rules apply when you encounter the bane. If a bane says an effect happens if or when you do a particular thing, it applies to any character who does that thing. If it limits the things you can do, that limit applies to any character who wants to do those things; however, if the limitation is the result of an action such as playing a card or attempting a check, it applies only to the character who took that action.This rule is why, when a bane says "Before you act, attempt an Arcane 12 check or you may not play spells that have the Attack trait" it applies to anyone that wants to end up playing spells.
I'm not quite sure that rule applies to the Baykok Lord though. Mostly because the "original" character clearly doesn't have to attempt a Wisdom 9 check, even if they want to play cards or use powers on their own check to defeat.
But I would say I'm not 100% sure.
Yeah, I was thinking about the BYA spell resistance powers when I wrote my reply; forgot that a different rule covers that case.