I could use some help understanding the rules around casting offensive spells and attack rolls. In the section called "Attacks" (page 331) in Chapter 10 "Magic and Spells" of the Starfinder Core Rulebook, its states:
"Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Anytime you would need to make an attack roll to determine whether your spell hits a target, you are considered to be making an attack.
Even an effect that is inoffensive or beneficial to some affected creatures still counts as an attack if it would be considered offensive to any affected creature. Spells that deal damage, spells that opponents can resist with saving throws (and that are not harmless), and spells that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks."
If all offensive spells are considered attacks, does that mean a caster must make an attack roll against their target's AC to determine if a spell successfully hits? On top of saving throw and spell resistance checks, if required?
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If the spell says make an attack roll, then roll the appropriate ranged/melee attack. If it doesn't say to make an attack roll then it doesn't need to hit. Spells of both types may have saves and may or may not be blocked by spell resistance. Look at spells like hurl forcedisk, jolting surge, disintegrate and compare to spells like daze or mindthrust.
So, SirShua, you're saying that the spell description for each offensive spell should be read as written (RAW) because it explains which checks to make when cast.
For example, when casting spells like Hurl Forcedisk and Jolting Surge, make the following checks.
- Attack roll
- Spell resistance
And when casting spells like Daze and Mind Thrust, make these checks.
- Saving throw
- Spell resistance
When casting spells like Crush Skull and Disintegrate, make all three checks.
- Attack roll
- Saving throw
- Spell resistance
And when casting spells like Magic Missile and Wall of Fire, only make this check.
- Spell resistance
Is this why people often say Magic Missiles is an "auto-hit" spell? Because it doesn't require an attack roll or a saving throw check?
That's exactly what I'm saying yes. And magic missile even says they strike unerringly.
unerring (adj.) Committing no mistakes; consistently accurate.
Okay, good to know. Learn something new every day!
Mind answering another question, SirShua, while you're here? In the subsection "Automatic Failures and Successes" under the section "Saving Throws in Play" in Chapter 8 "Tactical Rules", it states:
"A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success."
Does this mean it's only possible to critically hit with a casted offensive spell that requires an attack roll check to be made?
Correct. Anything with an attack roll can critically hit.
Which... has nothing to do with saving throws, so I'm not sure how you got from A to B, but there you go.
Thanks for clarifying. By the way, does the dice check resolution order for a casted offensive spell always go from attack roll to saving throw to spell resistance, whichever are required by the spell? Assuming the target makes no reactions, of course.
They're using too many words and confusing language to say that just because you're not making an attack roll, doesn't mean you're not making an attack.
Basically, they're rule-proofing someone saying 'Well, this spell ends if I make an attack, but fireball doesn't need a roll so it isn't an attack.'
Yeah, the language of the quote in my original post is verbose and confusing. So, Pantshandshake, you're saying that any casted offensive spell, even if it doesn't require an attack roll check, is still considered an "attack" because there are certain effects in the game that are dependent on whether or not an attack was made.
For example, the spell description of the Invisibility spell states:
"The spell ends if the target attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell or harmful effect targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Actions directed at unattended objects don’t break the spell. Spells that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon security forces and have them attack, start a trash compactor with foes inside, remotely trigger traps, and so forth."
So, if a creature casted Invisibility and then Magic Missiles, the Invisibility spell would end because an attack was made, even though Magic Missiles doesn't require an attack roll check.
It should be hit, spell resistance, saving throw in that order if they have it.
The monster's spell resistance doesn't trigger if they aren't hit, and won't need to save if it's resistance stops the spell or isn't hit.
Logically, this makes sense. Is this order confirmed in the core rulebook somewhere? I’ve looked high and low.
By the way, I found the rule about critically hitting with spells that require an attack roll in the rulebook. It’s in the “Targets” subsection (page 334-335), under the “Area, Effect, and Targets” section in Chapter 10 “Magic and Spells”.
“Spells with Attack Rolls: Some spells require an attack roll to hit. For these spells, you don’t need line of sight to the target, but you still need line of effect (see page 271). These spells can score a critical hit just as a weapon can, and deal double damage on a successful critical hit. If one of these spells has a duration, it refers to the duration of the effect that the attack causes, not the length of time that the attack itself persists.”
Logically, this makes sense. Is this order confirmed in the core rulebook somewhere? I’ve looked high and low.
I found a reference for dice check resolution order, but not in the core rulebook! Rather, I found it in the Starfinder Alien Archive, under the section called "Spell Resistance (Ex)" (page 156) in Appendix 4 "Universal Creature Rules". It states:
"The creature can avoid the effects of some spells and spell-like abilities that would directly affect it. To determine whether a spell or spell-like ability works against a creature with spell resistance, the caster must attempt a caster level check (1d20 + caster level). If the result equals or exceeds the creature’s spell resistance, the spell works normally, though the creature can still attempt any saving throws normally allowed. See page 265 of the Starfinder Core Rulebook for more information."
At least this confirms that resolving the spell resistance comes before resolving the saving throw. And though it's not officially stated, I believe it's a fair interpretation of the above rules to resolve the attack roll before the saving throw as well.
I don't think damage is what defines an attack. but giving someone a condition or such would as well (such as fear, or daze, or blind, or whatever).
Basically, any spell that affects a non-ally is most likely an attack, even if it doesn't do damage.
That's correct. In the section called "Attacks" (page 331-332) in Chapter 10 "Magic and Spells" of the Starfinder Core Rulebook, its states (emphasis mine):
"Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Anytime you would need to make an attack roll to determine whether your spell hits a target, you are considered to be making an attack.
Even an effect that is inoffensive or beneficial to some affected creatures still counts as an attack if it would be considered offensive to any affected creature. Spells that deal damage, spells that opponents can resist with saving throws (and that are not harmless), and spells that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks."