| Joyd |
Joyd wrote:Volkard Abendroth wrote:(Snipped.)None of this changes the fact that incorporeal phantoms cannot attack corporeal creatures. It's not "what counts as corporeal" that affects what the incorporeal phantom can attack. It's the "can't attack corporeal creatures" rule. I wish this worked, and it's a reasonable GM interpretation that it should, but it explicitly does not. "Count as corporeal" does not grant the ability to attack corporeal opponents, as that has nothing to do with why the phantom cannot attack corporeal opponents. Incorporeal creatures can already attack corporeal creatures without Ghost Touch being involved at all. The phantom specifically cannot attack while incorporeal because it's a rule for phantoms; that rule has nothing at all to do with the rules for being incorporeal. It's confusing, but not ambiguous.
(This, incidentally, is why the Phantom Fighter feat emphasizes that it makes your Phantom "a deadly foe of incorporeal adversaries" instead of "a completely unbeatable threat to a wide variety of corporeal creatures," which would be a much more noteworthy effect. I get that feat fluff text is not rules text, of course, but it's instructive.)
The ghost touch property is more specific than the general rule stating incorporeal creatures cannot attack corporeal creatures.
Because an incorporeal weapon (or natural weapon in this case) is treated as corporeal, limitations on incorporeal attacks are not applicable.
There is no general rule stating that incorporeal creatures cannot attack corporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures can attack corporeal creatures with no trouble or limitations of any kind. (They actually get some benefits when doing so.) They simply cannot hold a corporeal weapon to do it - that's where ghost touch weapons come in. The Phantom specifically has a special rule that, while in its incorporeal manifestation, it cannot attack corporeal creatures except with touch attacks. This has nothing to do with limitations about what incorporeal creatures can attack because no such limitations exist. It's critical to understand that the fact that an incorporeal phantom cannot attack corporeal creatures has nothing whatsoever to do with the limitations of incorporeal creatures (which don't exist in the first place) or the fact that the phantom itself is incorporeal. I get that it seems like they should be connected, but they're not. Reasonable houserule, but the RAW is completely unambiguous here. (It's confusing because the idea of giving a phantom a ghost touch amulet makes intuitive sense, but it doesn't actually interact with the limitation in any way.)
| Volkard Abendroth |
There is no general rule stating that incorporeal creatures cannot attack corporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures can attack corporeal creatures with no trouble or limitations of any kind. (They actually get some benefits when doing so.) They simply cannot hold a corporeal weapon to do it - that's where ghost touch weapons come in. The Phantom specifically has a special rule that, while in its incorporeal manifestation, it cannot attack corporeal creatures except with touch attacks. This has nothing to do with limitations about what incorporeal creatures can attack because no such limitations exist. It's critical to understand that the fact that an incorporeal phantom cannot attack corporeal creatures has nothing whatsoever to do with the limitations of incorporeal creatures (which don't exist in the first place) or the fact that the phantom itself is incorporeal. I get that it seems like they should be connected, but they're not. Reasonable houserule, but the RAW is completely unambiguous here. (It's confusing because the idea of giving a phantom a ghost touch amulet makes intuitive sense, but it doesn't actually interact with the limitation in any way.)
Please cite the source stating that incorporeal phantoms cannot attack.
| Moonheart |
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The phantom is just not a regular incorporeal creature on this regard.
Allow me to quote a part of the class description:
Incorporeal: When the spiritualist chooses to manifest the phantom in incorporeal form, the phantom appears within 30 feet of the spiritualist as a ghostly apparition. It gains the incorporeal subtype, including a deflection bonus to AC equal to its Charisma modif ier. Since it isn’t an undead creature, it takes no damage from holy water or positive energy. Unlike other incorporeal creatures, an incorporeal phantom can’t attack corporeal creatures, except to deliver touch-attack spells using the deliver touch spell ability. An incorporeal manifested phantom can make slam attacks against other incorporeal creatures as if it were in ectoplasmic form.