Tyranny of winds, part 1: The Sandstorm Prophecy

[Pheonixwizzy]

If possible could some one tell me what official ruling there is on the following boon please.

Spoiler:

Genie Heritage: "Ifrit: Ifrit bloodragers with the elemental (fire) bloodline and Ifrit Sorcerers with the Efreeti bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer and bloodrager spells and class abilities.",

what I am looking for is what this boon increases (in regards to my character being a Ifrit sorcerer, I.E increase spell DC would it affect bonus spells as it counts as +2 CHA to all sorcerer class abilities and spells. I am getting different answers from different GM's

thanks in advanced just i would like to know before i lock in the use of this boon.

also i appologise if this is asked in the wrong section i just would like to get an official answer one that my GM'S will accept

[Nefreet]

The language of the Boon is similar to the Racial Trait of the various Genie kin, so I'll tentatively flag this for the Rules Questions Forum, but I'll also give my take on it below:

Ifrit Sorcerers with the Efreeti bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities

To me, this would effectively increase your DCs and Concentration checks by +1, because your Charisma is treated as +2 higher than it is.

I can't actually think of anything else it could do. What have GMs ruled in the past?

Regarding the second part, "Sorcerer class abilities", you specifically would not get +1 to Sorcerer class skills, which is what I've encountered as an argument before.

Rather, any Sorcerer abilities you possess, such as the Efreeti Bloodline's Fire Ray, would be treated as if your Charisma were +2 higher, which in this instance nets you one more Fire Ray.

That's my interpretation, anyways. I'm curious to see what else people come up with.

[Pheonixwizzy]

I've had one argue that as it would in effect although not actually raise my CHA to 20 it would give me more bonus spells from the bonus spells from ability scores list due to CHA 20 as spells are a sorcerer class ability and the + 2 CHA would not make my CHA 20 but make it act as 20 for bonus spells ECT.

also as you have said some argued that skills should be +1 well only the CHA based ones if they were class skills that is.

another disputed this.

also they could not be sure as they said i sort of already get this from fire affinity racial and they was not sure taht it could stack.

which if it cannot stack then it makes the boon pointless for a Ifrit sorcerer unless i am miss understanding something.

sorry if my grammern and spelling are not to great also :)

[GM Blake]

I agree with Nefreet.

I've never had anyone try to argue bonus spells. Bonus spells are a function of something called Bonus Spells, not Spells or Class Abilities.

This is what the boon is good for. It changes Fire Affinity from:

Ifrit sorcers treat their Charisma as 2 higher for Elemental (fire) bloodline spells and abilities.

To:

Ifrit sorcerers treat their Charisma as 2 higher for Elemental (fire) and Efreet bloodline spells and abilities, AND ifrit bloodragers treat their Charisma as 2 higher for Elemental (fire) bloodline spells and abilities.

EDIT: I should add that this boon applies to any future ifrit sorcerers and bloodragers you might make as well, so if you really wanted an Ifrit Efreet bloodline sorcerer, you won't miss out on the effective bump to Concentration, DCs, and abilities that comes with Fire Affinity.

EDIT 2: You are correct that if your character that earns it IS an Ifrit Fire bloodline sorcerer then it has no effect for that character.

[Pheonixwizzy]

GM Blake

thsnks for your imput i just want to check im reading this right.

if i create a new ifrit sorcerer with the efreet bloodline ability. it is to supliment what i no dont get from the fire affinity racial?

so my choice is to get tbe bonus either be a element fire blood line and not use boon or use boon and efreet bloodline as it does not give aditional ontop of fire affinity

again thanks for your help

[GM Blake]

Correct. Also bloodragers as Fire Affinity as written does not apply to bloodragers.

I'd have to pull out my copy to be sure, so there may be choices that affect how many elements you get, but I recall having it affect all four elemental races with their respective progenitor bloodline, so it's a pretty cool thematic boon.

EDIT: Also, it's not consumed/used up. You can make as many sorcerers and bloodragers to take advantage of it as you want. Helpful if it gets killed early on or you're an alt-o-holic.

[Gamerskum]

Actually Bonus spells are part of the Class Abilities called you know spells

"Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells)."

Every spellcaster class has the same thing but its clearly in a class ability.

[Starglim]

I agree with Gamerskum. The character's CHA counts as 2 higher for sorcerer or bloodrager spells. Among other things, this increases the number of bonus spells and (maybe importantly for a bloodrager) the highest level of spells the character can cast, when he reaches a sufficient class level.

[GM Blake]

The "see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells" is the key. I'll accept that we disagree that Fire Affinity increases their Charisma for the purpose of bonus spells.

However, the section on Spells as a class ability referencing back to the Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells section, saying, "In addition, she receives bonus spells per day ... [like it is defined here in this table]" does not make bonus spells a function of the class ability, it's a function of ability scores.

The class ability grants the ability to cast spells.
The Ability statistic determines how many bonus spells you get.

Now, if we want to go into the weeds: there is nothing called "class abilities." There are only "Class Features," and Fire Affinity provides no effect on "Class Features."

[Gamerskum]

Only so they dont have to reprint it in every single class with spells, by your logic Fighter Bonus Feats aren't a class ability since they reference the combat feat section of the book.

[GM Blake]

They aren't a class ability, actually. They're feats. Fighter Bonus Feats has no (Ex, Su, or Sp) to define it as an ability.

Bravery (Ex) is a class ability, as are Weapon Training (Ex), Armor Training (Ex), Armor Mastery (Ex), and Weapon Mastery (Ex).

Fighter bonus feats are a class feature, a function of the class. In this case, you get more feats.

Going back to Sorcerers:

Sorcerers have the following Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Spells
Bloodline
Cantrips
Eschew Materials

None of those are Abilities. The first and last are functions that grant Feats. The second and fourth are functions that grant the system of Spellcasting. And Bloodlines is a Feature that grants a suite of features and abilities.

You choice of Bloodline provides:
An additional class skill (static feature)
Bonus Spells (feature that grants spells, not abilities)
Bonus Feats (feature that grants Feats, not abilities)
Bloodline Arcana (unique feature)
Bloodline Powers (abilities in the Ex, Su, and Sp variety)

So, I interpret Fire Affinity elemental (fire) bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities to mean: when they cast a spell, the Charisma dependent variables reference their Charisma +2, and when they use a Bloodline Power (the only Abilities in the class), they reference their Charisma +2.

In short, my definition of a class ability is that it has a (Ex), (Su), or (Sp) attached to it, otherwise it's not an "Ability."

You don't have to agree with the definition of "Ability" that I've interpreted from the CRB. And, ultimately, the question is answerable if enough people felt it was unclear enough to to be asked, but until then, we will all have to accept table variation.

One last piece of circumstantial evidence: The Evangelist Prestige Class' ability (Ex) (amusingly enough) references advancing class features not class abilities, so there seems to be a mechanical, rules-based difference between class features and class abilities recognized by the editors, the former being broader and more encompassing (allowing Spells and Sneak Attack and things like Trapfinding to advance despite not being abilities).