Shadow Conjuration / Evocation Will Save Justification

[Morqendi]

Hello everyone :)

I am currently working on an Illusionist-Sorcerer and came across shadow conjuration/evocation which I find interesting. However, the group I am playing with (and me too) find it very confusing; to the point that we had quite a discussion if it should be forbidden in our campaigns (me arguing to allow it ofc).

Shadow conjuration is an illusion[shadow] spell and has quasi-real effects. Ok, so essentially one gets some energy from the shadow plane - if I am not mistaken - but its not entirely there or only partly/part-time.
What is weird is that if the enemy believes it, it is 100% real. If not, then only 20%. It works fine for something like Wall of Stone (if I believe that there's a wall, I will go somewhere else...).

But what about spiked pit?
- It is only 20% as deep (ok)
- If the enemy fails the will save, he/she must make a reflex save or fall into it (ok'ish)
- But: if the enemy succeeds the will save, he/she will likely (80%) not fall into it.

Why? What does it have to do with a will save to fall into a hole in the ground? Even if it is quasi-real it does not depend on the enemy's will but rather on 1) timing (i.e. is it real in the 6 seconds that the enemy stands on it?) and on 2) the power of the sorcerer (could he make it more real than quasi-real?).
Point 2) is already in place through the minor and greater versions of the spell, so that is fine. But why a will save to fall into a pit? Same for e.g. a shadow evocation fireball.

Did I understand the rules wrong here? What would RAI be for a shadow conj. spiked pit?

Thanks for your help!

[SmiloDan]

Because....IT'S MAGIC!

But seriously, it's an illusion, so that's why there is the Will save. Shadow conjuration was a spell before create pit was a spell, so they didn't have to think about it, so it wasn't designed with it in mind. It's one of those corner-cases.

Shadow conjuration and shadow evocation are extremely versatile spells. They can simulate a wide variety of spells, so to balance out that power, it requires a Will save. It's a meta-game issue, like why magic missile can't harm objects. It doesn't drain the life from its target like a necromancy spell, it's an evocation force effect. It's just a balance issue because it's a game.

Sometimes, you just need to shrug and accept things in the game. :-)

EDIT:

Probably for ease of game play, I would rule that if you make the Will Save, the strength of gravity is 20% normal, so you take 20% the damage if you fall in the pit. Also, if you make the Will Save, you only have a 20% chance of falling into the pit, so the other 80% are just walking on the floor there, avoiding "shadow holes" that lead into the pit.

[Slyme]

They get a will save to disbelieve the illusion...then they ALSO get a reflex save to avoid falling in the pit...just like they get a will save to disbelieve a shadow fireball, then a reflex save to avoid half the damage (or all if they have evasion).

This makes Shadow Evocation less powerful, but more versatile...if you have the real spell you are always better off casting it instead...but if you are illusion focused, it allows you to simulate any other evocation within the correct level range.

[Ascalaphus]

Shadow magic lets you mess up reality with things that are only partially real. That's something not everyone is comfortable with, and we'll call those people muggles :P

But really - a Shadow Pit is a totally weird thing. It's a hole in the ground that is approximately 20% there (for people who know what's up), and everyone else is "in the 20% preferential sub-reality".

But Create Pit was weird to begin with. If someone on the third floor casts Create Pit, nobody on the second floor notices because it's a hole in reality that's only open on one side. What happens if you try to go through the ceiling? Shadow Create Pit adds another bit of weirdness but it was weird to begin with.

So in practice: it's a sort of Looney Tunes thing. Someone walks over the Shadow Pit, and there's a 20% chance of them falling in, and 80% chance of them continuing.

My advice to your group is: don't be upset that it's weird or unrealistic. It's supposed to be. Shadow Magic really is violating reality in unlikely ways.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

The only times I'd see Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spells as "being more versatile" would be if they are used against enemies whom you know have bad Will Saves, and you don't want to have to memorize so many different types of spells of that school.

So, I suppose it's good for Giants and such, whose Will and Reflex Saves are crap, but against real problem enemies, it's just a waste of memorization/known space for other spells that will actually do something.

That being said, Shadow Evocation/Conjuration breaks the laws of reality by allowing something that's a Shadow actually do something more than simply affect visual perceptions, so you're walking into "Because Magic" territory based on that ideal alone.

[Slyme]

They are more versatile because 1 spell slot can mimic dozens of different spells. They are primarily a tool for illusion focused casters, especially if you build them to maximize their spell DCs.

Not much can resist a DC 30+ Greater Shadow Evocation, even with 2 saves.

[Ascalaphus]

Oh, a while back I used Shadow Fiery Shuriken to strip away a whole bunch of mirror images from a glabrezu. I would have never memorized Fiery Shuriken though.

Although, given how well they did at removing images, that spell is worth second consideration.

[Morqendi]

Thanks for the answers. However, "because it's magic" is an explanation that does not work with my group of players. We play a pretty RAI style game with powergaming being rejected. That's why new stuff is usually carefully examined :D

But, you are right. Create Pit is weird to begin with, cause no one a floor below you would see it. I also liked the explanation that it's a shadow pit with "shadow holes" on top like a Swiss cheese. That is actually a pretty good idea how to visualize it.

Thanks again! :)