Competence Bonuses and applications

[willuwontu]

So I was going through search results to show why circlet of persuasion doesn't work for initiative with noble scion of war and came across this.

competence bonus wrote:

A competence bonus (or penalty) affects a character's performance of a particular task, as in the case of the bardic ability to inspire competence. Such a bonus may apply on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks, or any other checks to which a bonus relating to level or skill ranks would normally apply. It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks. Multiple competence bonuses don't stack; only the highest bonus applies.

Normally I wouldn't question this but then it was pointed out that phrase had damage rolls in it, which hurts bards and other effects a lot.

competence bonus wrote:

It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks.

bard wrote:

Inspire Courage (Su): A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance.

So I tried searching for the source of this quote in order to figure out it's source and only came up with this table from d20pfsrd. Which is not an official source nor does it list the source it's from.

So can you tell me the book that table on d2pfsrd comes from or is this all from nowhere, and circlet would work on initiative checks through noble scion of war.

[Bill Dunn]

With respect to the bard's Inspire Courage giving a competence bonus to damage rolls vs the general text on competence bonuses, specific overrides general. The bard's power is more specific and explicit.

As far as using the circlet of persuasion to give a +3 competence bonus to initiative, I'd probably skip it even though the noble scion of war uses his charisma bonus to modify initiative checks rather than his Dex. It makes no specific exception on the use of competence bonuses to allow for initiative and it probably wasn't really conceived of when the circlet of persuasion was designed.

That said, it wouldn't likely be a game breaker either. So the noble scion of war gets an extra +3 to his initiative checks. So what?

Ultimately, I really get tired of ways classes, feats, archetypes and so on keep finding ways to concentrate power into single stats rather than keeping them divided up.

[willuwontu]

Aye, but I'm quite curious as to where that line came from, since it's not from the CRB, ACG, APG, or UM. Which irks me

[blahpers]

The original quote is from 3.5 (specifically d20srd.com), not Pathfinder. (d20pfsrd.com does that sometimes.) In Pathfinder, a competence bonus, like any other bonus, applies to whatever the granting effect says it does.

(Edit: link)

[willuwontu]

Thanks good sir

[Jeraa]

willuwontu wrote:

Aye, but I'm quite curious as to where that line came from, since it's not from the CRB, ACG, APG, or UM. Which irks me

d20PFSRD has been known to add its own interpretation to things, or pull from D&D, in addition to third party stuff. From a Pathfinder rules standpoint, it isn't always the best choice.

[willuwontu]

Indeed the books are the best choice, and then the PRD (when it's actually up to date). But sometimes you have to suffer with using D20pfsrd.

[Jeraa]

willuwontu wrote:

Indeed the books are the best choice, and then the PRD (when it's actually up to date). But sometimes you have to suffer with using D20pfsrd.

Or you use the Archives of Nethys. All official Paizo material (including stuff that is Open Content but Paizo doesn't put into the PRD) and is more up to date. And unlike d20PFSRD, they don't change the names of some stuff either.

[blahpers]

willuwontu wrote:

Thanks good sir

Any time. : D

[willuwontu]

Jeraa wrote:

willuwontu wrote:

Indeed the books are the best choice, and then the PRD (when it's actually up to date). But sometimes you have to suffer with using D20pfsrd.

Or you use the Archives of Nethys. All official Paizo material (including stuff that is Open Content but Paizo doesn't put into the PRD) and is more up to date. And unlike d20PFSRD, they don't change the names of some stuff either.

Indeed, but Nethys doesn't have the rules in it.

[willuwontu]

Also, I have gotten d20pfsrd to fix the table now. It stemmed partially from the spell creation table on page 134 of UM.

[wraithstrike]

willuwontu wrote:

Indeed the books are the best choice, and then the PRD (when it's actually up to date). But sometimes you have to suffer with using D20pfsrd.

You can check on paizo.com to see the last time errata was done. If it was before the prd was updated then the prd is updated for that book. With that being said the D20pfsrd site is wrong. Not that it matters because specific trumps general. That is why other class abilities get to ignore the rules.

[Derklord]

Note that all three may have errors in them that the newest version of the books don't have - so called stealth errata (changes not listed in the errata documents) don't show up on either site, which is why all three still list the "oils worth 1,000 gp" part of Reincarnate as a divine focus rather than a material component, even though that was fixed in the 5th printing of the CRB, i.e. over six years ago.