Can I make an AOO while grappled


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

I have a viper vine that grappled 2 PC. The third one told tht a grappled character can't make AOO. I check under AOO, Grapple, Prappled and didn't see any reference for that interdiction.


Well, you're missing the obvious, methinks =)

From the CRB wrote:
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Bolding mine.

Scarab Sages

Doh.... I read it twice...

Scarab Sages

For the record, though, in order to have 2 PCs grappled, the vine should be taking a -20 on its grapple check. If it didn't do that, it can only grapple 1 creature. If it did do that, then it doesn't gain the grappled condition, and it can still make AoOs (and potentially grab 2 more creatures with its other tentacles).

Grab wrote:

Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Format: grab; Location: individual attacks.

So to recap, the characters who are grappled cannot make AoOs (unless they have some other ability). The vine may or may not be able to make AoOs, depending on whether or not it took the -20 when it grabbed the characters (and when it maintains). If it did take the -20, then it can still make AoOs. If it did not, then it can't, and it should only have one of the characters grappled.


That's not correct Thune.
If it has more then one attack with grab, it can grapple multiple people on its turn. It just can't maintain the grapple after the first round on more then one without taking the -20 penalty.

Scarab Sages

Hmm... I can see how it could be read that way. But it does say you take the -20 when you "make and maintain," not just maintain.

I think the grappled condition precludes making a grapple check on a second opponent without an ability stating otherwise, and unless it takes the -20, it gains the grappled condition after the first grab. Though I'll admit it's not as directly stated as that.

At the very least, it would take the penalties associated with the grappled condition on the second grab in the round.


Ferious Thune wrote:

Hmm... I can see how it could be read that way. But it does say you take the -20 when you "make and maintain," not just maintain.

I think the grappled condition precludes making a grapple check on a second opponent without an ability stating otherwise, and unless it takes the -20, it gains the grappled condition after the first grab. Though I'll admit it's not as directly stated as that.

At the very least, it would take the penalties associated with the grappled condition on the second grab in the round.

I agree that per "make and maintain" the vine should take a -20 on the first grab if it wants to grab without becoming grappled. The grappled condition does not preclude making a grapple check against a second opponent, though. Maintaining both grapples will be pretty tricky without Greater Grapple, though.

(Edited because I always screw up grab.)

Scarab Sages

So a humanoid character can grapple two opponents (taking the penalty on the second grapple for only using 1 hand)? Genuinely asking.

Ok, reading over Grabbing Style that's probably correct. I thought there was language in there to allow grappling two opponents, but it just removes the penalty for grappling with one hand.

So to amend my thoughts, the creature could grab the first character at full bonus, but would need to take the penalty on the second grab.

EDITED due to blahpers edit: So wait, what penalties would it take on the second grab? -20? -4 (for not having two "hands" free)? Just the -2 to attacks from grappled?


Well, the grappled condition applies -4 to dex, and -2 to all attacks and combat maneuvers EXCEPT grapples.

Since it takes a std to initiate, pretty much the only way to do it is via the grab ability.

If you have the Grab ability, most times this is done via tentacles, etc. This won't have the "two hands free modifier" applied.

So, if you're going at -20, there's no penalty on multiple grapples.
If you are not going at -20, you're going to get -4 to your dex (which may or may not affect) the two hand penalty if it applies, and the +4 due to the grab.

Scarab Sages

Ok. I missed that the -2 didn't apply to grapple checks. Makes sense. So essentially no penalty, but you still gain the grappled condition, so no AoOs. And you could still only maintain one of those grapples on round 2 without Improved Grapple. Correct?


Right.

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