Simple question: Do familiars (who can speak, such as mephits) gain bonus languages when the master gains ranks in Linguistics?
Nope. The bonus language comes from "putting a rank into this skill". The Familiar can merely make checks using its master's skill ranks.
That's a good question. I would assume no, though. Familiars don't gain the master's skill ranks. They simply use the master's skill level if it's higher than theirs. A familiar would be better able to decipher a written document better, but not learn another language since it didn't actually gain the skill rank.
VRMH ninja'd me. Curse my slow typing and internet connection!
This comes up often and is somewhat controversial. Personally I'm with this guy, who argues convincingly that yes they do.
It's equivocal, but the soulless RAW of it says no, There are thematic and exemplary arguments either way, but parsing the wording: (bolding is mine)
Learn a Language: Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language. Common languages (and their typical speakers) include the following......
So, since the familiar never actually puts a rank of its own into linguistics, and the wording doesn't come from HAVING the skill rank, it gains no languages. Note that the existance of the "Speak with Master" ability does tend to suggest that there was no intent to give an animal based familiar languages this way. Since "improved" an most "archetypal" familiars of any kind do not get Speak With Master, it has been argued that this makes them qualitatively different than standard familiars in this regard. (Iffy, but interesting.
Note that since unchained (retraining) came out, familiar's did get an official out, the above quote opens linguistics to some abuse to the clever character (PC or NPC) who can actually put ranks into linguistics, and even to those that can't but can retrain at all.
New Language
You can spend time to learn an additional language. It takes 20 days of training to gain a bonus language, and these days need not be consecutive. Each language requires a trainer who shares a language with you and knows the language you want to learn, or a book written in a language you know that explains the basics of the language you want to learn.The new language does not count toward your maximum number of languages (racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks). You can train this way only a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus.
Note that this, especially the bolded bit, is the only place I have seen Paizo list an actual maximum number number of languages a character can know, and it is, unfortunately, in an optional ruleset (retraining).
Once your familiar gets to Int 10, he can learn an actual language, but only the one until his Int bonus goes up, allowing him another such retraining.]
Skill Ranks
You can retrain skill ranks you have assigned to skills. Retraining skill ranks takes 5 days. When the training period ends, reassign a number of skill ranks up to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1), removing them from your existing skill (or skills) and adding them to a different skill (or skills).If retraining skill ranks means you no longer qualify for a feat or other ability you have, you can't use that feat or ability until you meet the qualifications again. (Or you can retrain that feat or other ability.)
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So you can exploit this to allow you to learn up to your Int bonus in new languages in a total of 10 days training (to end with all your skill ranks back in their right places.). Since the familiar uses the master's skill ranks when they are higher than the familiars own, its cap of known languages is based on the masters linguistics if higher than the familiars. So, even though the creature is not actually gaining new skill ranks, so normally couldn't learn new languages, through retraining in two different ways it can learn at least some languages, providing retraining is allowed to it.
It's equivocal, but the soulless RAW of it says no, There are thematic and exemplary arguments either way, but parsing the wording: (bolding is mine)
Learn a Language: Whenever you put a rank into this skill, you learn to speak and read a new language. Common languages (and their typical speakers) include the following......So, since the familiar never actually puts a rank of its own into linguistics, and the wording doesn't come from HAVING the skill rank, it gains no languages. Note that the existance of the "Speak with Master" ability does tend to suggest that there was no intent to give an animal based familiar languages this way. Since "improved" an most "archetypal" familiars of any kind do not get Speak With Master, it has been argued that this makes them qualitatively different than standard familiars in this regard. (Iffy, but interesting.
Note that since unchained (retraining) came out, familiar's did get an official out, the above quote opens linguistics to some abuse to the clever character (PC or NPC) who can actually put ranks into linguistics, and even to those that can't but can retrain at all.
Note that this, especially the bolded bit, is the only place I have seen Paizo list an actual maximum number number of languages a character can know, and it is, unfortunately, in an optional ruleset (retraining)....New Language
You can spend time to learn an additional language. It takes 20 days of training to gain a bonus language, and these days need not be consecutive. Each language requires a trainer who shares a language with you and knows the language you want to learn, or a book written in a language you know that explains the basics of the language you want to learn.The new language does not count toward your maximum number of languages (racial languages + bonus languages from Intelligence + Linguistics ranks). You can train this way only a number of times equal to 1 + your Intelligence bonus.
I like the in-depth analysis here, but what say you to the link in the post above (referenced by Fuzzy-Wuzzy)? The wording and function of the spell "Borrow Skill" seems to indicate that "ranks are ranks," no matter how you are obtaining them. I do understand your logic, but I also see the contradictory point that sidewaysmonkey made in his/her original post. Nothing else in the game really cares about "putting in the rank," but instead notices whether or not you simply have ranks. Ranks in a skill indicate training, and your familiar shares your training. One would think, even thematically, that your familiar would also gain the knowledge of languages as much as they gain the knowledge of esoteric magic, extraplanar entities, and architectural history.
Eh. It could just be semantics, but it doesn't state that the familiar "borrows" the skill rank. It says that it simply uses whichever skill rank that's higher to perform a skill. Like to read a language. Now, you could say that "performing" linguistics is learning the language, but I disagree. Some DM's would allow it. I wouldn't.
On a side note, I did have a character (that I had since Basic D&D up through 3.5) have Tongues permanently cast on his rat familiar. That because his translator. I miss that character. Packer (his rat) had a little green vest with Pockets of Holding where he kept a wand of CMW as well as any stuff he found and could fit in there. Each pocket held 1 cubic foot of space. Anyway... Rat as a translator. No extra languages due to Linguistics. Again, that's me. I;m aware of the arguments for and against and I understand both sides. I just prefer no.
Darker,
The "Borrowed Skill" spell does not involve putting a skill rank int linguistics, so logically it would not "trigger" the learning of a language. Per RAW, learning a language is not actually using your linguistics skill at all, it is using your available and assignable skill ranks. In a thematic description, learning a language is using/assigning your intellect combined with your untapped experience (the best I can explain skill points)
Since the maximum languages known is based on how many ranks the creature HAS, it is affected by skill ranks granted by the Master's skill ranks, or even by Borrowed skill if the duration of that was permanent or long enough to allow the exploit to learn the language. It wouldn't allow the learning of the language, but would allow the retention of a language that was otherwise learned.
Note that a PC using the exploit I cited should reasonably lose any languages extra languages gained if he moves skill ranks back out of linguistics, but since this kind of thing is generally player choice as to what goes away, the effect is a changing of which languages are known, not how many.
Note that, as a homerule, I do allow the Share Languages Spell, cast with the use of Power Components, to actually cause the recipient learn a new language, allowing the recipient to choose which languages are actually retained.
EDIT ADD
Clever characters at my table can use "enhanced" Share Language spells to rapidly change their language line-ups.
Consider sidewaysmonkey's "class skills" argument:
Firstly, in the skills entry under the familiar heading we find the rules detailing the skill rank “borrowing”, but what I focus on here is the following list of familiar class skills. Since familiars do not level up and therefore never gain skill points to put into those class skills there is absolutely no reason to list class skills here. In this case I can only make the assumption that the author’s intent was to allow the familiar to benefit from a +3 bonus to said class skills, provided that:
A. The familiar has not already gained the bonus from its prior life as an animal
B. It gains a rank in the skill from its master by “using ranks of master”Now, if you look at the skills chapter in CRB (p86, left column, 1st paragraph under acquiring skills heading) you will see that the +3 bonus can ONLY be gained by “putting ranks into” a skill, the same language that we find regarding the language gain from linguistics. Specifically, “You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into.” Because the written language is the same we can’t apply it in one instance but not the other. If the familiar is, in fact, granted any +3 class skill bonus to any class skill based on a skill rank “borrowed” from its master, then that skill is considered by CRB to have had ranks “put into it” and it must also be granted any languages that the master has learned from the linguistics skill. The alternative would be a familiar that did not gain additional languages and could literally never gain a class skill bonus by any means other than one that it may have begun life with as a natural animal.
Based on this, I can only judge that the skill points gained by a familiar from its master do not and are not intended to function any differently than a skill point that it acquired on its own.
Yes Fuzzy, I read it. The semantic point being that neither the Master nor the familiar are actually placing a skill point in that shared skill rank. The familiar just gets to USE those ranks as if they were its own.
I disagree with the monkey's syntactical analysis.
Disagree on what grounds?
Disagree on what grounds?
Because I have professionally performed this kind of analysis for legal/contractual issues, and I am actually very good at it? I have already stated my reasoning.
"Because I'm a professional" is not actually much of an argument.
The text of linguistics says "put a rank into" and that's what you're relying on. The text of class skills says the exact same thing. So if the former gives the familiar nothing, neither does the latter. And yet they take the time (and page space) to tell us the familiar's class skills.
I have yet to see you (or anyone) cite a specific flaw in that reasoning.
No Fuzzy, because I am a professional is not an argument, it is, however, establishing my bonafides for the arguments I have been making.
One Last Time.
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master's skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar's total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar's ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
Again, the master's skill ranks are being used, by the familiar. These ranks aren't being gained by the familiar. If the familiar somehow does actually work out a way to actually gain a rank in linguistics, and I have shown a method on how it might be done within the written rules, THEN that rank would be gained and added to the familiar's natural ranks, likely zero, NOT to the master's ranks. THIS actual gaining of a rank in linguistics WOULD allow the familiar to learn a language.
Yes, Daw, I understand your argument. But you have again failed to address the class-skills-use-the-same-language counter-argument....
Anyway, darkerthought7, as the sacred Original Poster, do you hold yourself answered?
Class Skill Bonuses to the Linguistics Skill do not provide additional languages and so are not relevant to this discussion.
Class Skill Bonuses to the Linguistics Skill do not provide additional languages and so are not relevant to this discussion.
Daw, I think you missed the point of the post. It's not a question of whether the class skill BONUS provides languages. That's not in question, as the text links ranks to languages known. Instead, the use of language in how the class skills BONUS is applied (insofar as the bonus "activates" when you "put a rank" into the skill) mirrors that of the language in the opening lines of the Linguistics skill. This implies (though it is hazy) that the presence of ranks is what is important, not how they were obtained or how they were applied. That's the argument. And I don't feel that you've addressed that. This matter is still not clear, Fuzzy. I can see both sides of the debate, and both of them from a RAW perspective.
In other news, I may just say "screw it" and enchant wizard and familiar with permanent Tongues effects. At least then, the rules are quite clear.
Class Skill Bonuses to the Linguistics Skill do not provide additional languages and so are not relevant to this discussion.
You rolled a critical failure on bothering to read the argument before "refuting" it. What a straw man! No one has even mentioned class skill bonuses to Linguistics in particular, only class skills in general. I am mightily unimpressed with your professional skills. Go read sidewaysmonkey's post again, if my summary was insufficient for you.
In other news, I may just say "screw it" and enchant wizard and familiar with permanent Tongues effects. At least then, the rules are quite clear.
That works, as long as your familiar can use scrolls competently. Tongues is one of the spells you can only make permanent on yourself. A mephit that gets good UMD from you should be able to handle it.