Grappling

[Morbidwarrior]

Oh yeah....let's do it again. I have read a lot of the threads and I am seeing a lot of conflicting information.

So....the grapple has been initiated and both parties get the "grappled" condition.

The grappler (controller) traditionally can only maintain the grapple as a standard action (feats aside), while the grappled (controlled) has two options, escape (CMB v CMD or Escape artist) or full attack albeit at -2.....which isn't much.

(I am taking things like constrict and rake out of the equation for the moment)

So to lay this out clearly, the controller of the grapple can't do anything other than maintain the grapple, and the controlled can do a full attack. The controller could forgo his control check, thus freeing up his opportunity to do a full attack opportunity, but it takes the dominance of being the controlling grappler completely out of the equation. That's crazy!

With all this said, the way to optimize this would be to grapple, control, and every round as a free action, give up the grapple and attack and re-grapple to maximize damage. lame.

And finally, we come to the new diagrams that are floating around - which, for the most part, are pretty helpful. Area of confusion if when the controller makes his grapple check to maintain the grapple, it now states he can do damage. (is this referring to constrict or rake?) and if not, this kind of trivializes feats like greater grapple, right?

This is all every confusing and in all honesty, it really takes the dominance of being the controlling grappler completely out of the equation. I'd love to hear everyones thoughts - I kind of feel like a house rule needs to be instituted. I keep thinking about two wrestlers grappling, the dominant one just maintaining the grapple while the controlled one getting punch in the face every round.

Apologies in advance for re-opening this conundrum of a rule.

[natloz]

Combat Section of the PRD wrote:

If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

After this part are the things you can do to the thing you've grappled (move, damage, pin, tie up). These things are done as part of the 'control check' as you've called it. The damage option is usually your unarmed strike damage. Granted, this is without the grapple feats and extra things you can do while maintaining the grapple with items and such.

Without an attack with the grab ability you wouldn't do any damage on the initial grapple check. Did that clear anything up?

[Perfect Tommy]

Do you want to link to the new diagrams?

This chart, which I believe to be correct, does not have grapple damage occuring as part of a maintain.

http://www.tenebraemush.net/images/1/17/Grapple_flow_chart_A.pdf

[Morbidwarrior]

Okay, that is helpful, so basically you do your check and get your damages. Got it, nice. But if I have 7 different natural attacks, I maintain my grapple (giving me constrict dmg), do I do damage with all 7 attacks?

Next question: your Eidolon could conceivably have 4 tails; can each tail start a separate grapple and consequently, constrict? So in essence I could have 4 different opponents in 4 different tails, all being constricted, or alternatively, have all 4 tails grappling and doing 4x contract damage?

[Chess Pwn]

nope, only get one attack if you succeed the grapple to maintain. And you can't grapple more than one guy since each grapple check to maintain is it's own standard action.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So at least part of the problem is that you're picturing grappling wrong. Grappling isn't wrestling holds or clinching. It's grabbing someone by the arm so they can't easily get away. What you're thinking of (in control and beating the other guy up) is pin.

As others have said, you get one "attack". I put it in quotes because you don't need to roll again, the grapple check is the attack roll. If you choose the damage option and succeed on the maintain roll, you just do damage ("equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon"). But just one.

As you describe it, no, you cannot do that with an Eidolon (or anything I know of). First off, you don't actually grapple with specific body parts without language saying otherwise. An Eidolon without specific verbiage would just be "grappling", not "grappling with their tail". The normal way you use a specific limb is with grab but for an Eidolon they would need a Tail Slap, not just a Tail (and the Grab evolution). So with four Tails, four Tail Slaps, Grab, and Constrict an Eidolon could make four tail slap attacks against four separate targets (at least one size smaller than the Eidolon) and every one that hits would get a free grapple check that if successful would also do the same amount of damage as the tail slap attack (from constrict). Then next turn the Eidolon has to maintain each of the four grapples separately, meaning at most two (I think) would stay grappled.

[Morbidwarrior]

I guess that's where I have a problem. Because the grappler (controller) maintains and gets one attack, while the grappled (controlled) can just do a full attack (unarmed or a light/small weapon) or try and get out of the grapple. Seems a little odd, no?

And as a former wrestler and current practitioner of jiu jitsu, if you can control a grapple, you can pretty much do whatever you want. If you pin your opponent, it's the equivalent of tying him/her up. I guess if the rules are suppose to be this way, it's better to full attack, grapple, get your free attack (constrict, rake), then on the subsequent round, release the grapple and do it again. Way better output damage-wise, and there really isn't a reason you'd want to grapple other than to jack with a caster.

[Chess Pwn]

Morbidwarrior wrote:

I guess that's where I have a problem. Because the grappler (controller) maintains and gets one attack, while the grappled (controlled) can just do a full attack (unarmed or a light/small weapon) or try and get out of the grapple. Seems a little odd, no?

And as a former wrestler and current practitioner of jiu jitsu, if you can control a grapple, you can pretty much do whatever you want. If you pin your opponent, it's the equivalent of tying him/her up. I guess if the rules are suppose to be this way, it's better to full attack, grapple, get your free attack (constrict, rake), then on the subsequent round, release the grapple and do it again. Way better output damage-wise, and there really isn't a reason you'd want to grapple other than to jack with a caster.

What you're thinking of as real life grappled is in game pinned, you can do pretty much whatever you want with them. Grappled is when you've grabbed someone's shirt collar, they are hampered some but still have hands free. That's why as a grappler you pin them and then you can beat them up as you wish while they can't really do anything.

[Bob Bob Bob]

What Chess Pwn said. The only restriction from grappled (the condition) is "nothing requiring two hands". You're not "in control" in the way you're thinking. The "controller" is just the grabber instead of the person being grabbed (and Pathfinder doesn't really have a mutual grab). I don't know if jiu jitsu is different but in Judo I recall starting already holding the other person's gi. That's grappled. Maneuvering them into a position where you're in control is the equivalent of pinning in Pathfinder. Pinned removes their ability to full-attack (well, or attack at all) and they can only try to escape the grapple (or a small subset of spells).

Pinned (as you think of it) is best represented by tied up (in Pathfinder). Tied up is a separate action you can take (while grappling or pinning) that forces them to roll against your best roll (20+CMB) and doesn't let them escape at all if they can't actually beat it. While pinned they can still escape (if they roll a 20 or you roll a 1). You need to shift your expectations. Grappled is "starting position", pinned is "in control", and tied up is "pinned".

As for what's best, depends on what you can do and what the opponent can do. For targets, two handed weapons get shut down but multiple natural attacks lose almost nothing. Barbarian with a greataxe? Can't use it in a grapple. Probably relegated to whatever their backup weapon is (and they need to spend a move action drawing it). Giant cat with 3 natural attacks and rake? Probably not a good idea to hold it close. For grapplers the only kind that benefit from grab->constrict->release next turn are things that have multiple attacks with grab and constrict who cannot maintain all of their grapples. Other grapplers are much better off going from grappled to pinned and then either tying up or causing damage. Again, the only options for pinned are "escape the grapple" or "tiny subset of spells". That's what you're thinking of when you say "in control".