Sundering and half damaging objects.

[Panchio]

So, an old core rule (since Dnd) was that you only deal half your damage when sundering objects, unless you had the Improved Sunder Feat.

So, imagine my surprise when I checked Improved Sunder (in the srd website) in the middle of a game and noticed there was not a mention to the full damage thing.

So, I go to the damaging objects section on srd and find out there is no mention what so ever of dealing half damage to objects!

Is the SRD right? Did they change the rules about sundering?

Every attack from any melee weapon deals regular damage to objects now?

[Jeraa]

Panchio wrote:

So, an old core rule (since Dnd) was that you only deal half your damage when sundering objects, unless you had the Improved Sunder Feat.

So, imagine my surprise when I checked Improved Sunder (in the srd website) in the middle of a game and noticed there was not a mention to the full damage thing.

So, I go to the damaging objects section on srd and find out there is no mention what so ever of dealing half damage to objects!

Is the SRD right? Did they change the rules about sundering?

Every attack from any melee weapon deals regular damage to objects now?

No, they didn't change the rule. You didn't do half damage with a melee weapon when sundering in 3.0/3.5 either. You may be confusing the rule that says energy damage does half damage (or sometimes 1/4 in 3.5 D&D) to objects. Or the rule that says ranged weapons deal half damage, but that was never removed by Improved Sunder. Melee weapons have always did their normal damage.

[Pizza Lord]

Panchio wrote:

Is the SRD right? Did they change the rules about sundering?

Like Jeraa said, I think you are misremembering. There was no real change to how sunder works (other than possibly CMD mechanics for the attack, and adding a Broken condition at exceeding half hit points). In 3.5, energy attacks and ranged attacks did only half damage to objects before applying Hardness excluding cold which did 1/4th and acid or sonic which dealt full damage typically. There were exceptions for certain items that might be more affected by certain attacks than others.

Objects (basically things with Hardness) in Pathfinder still take half damage from ranged attacks and energy attacks. What is different is there is no mention of quarter damage for cold or full damage from acid or sonic (though a GM is within their purview to allow either depending on the object). So the object's Hardness applies to all damage (obviously unless the specific attack says otherwise or the object is one that the GM rules vulnerable to that specific attack, like a crystalline object being vulnerable to sonic).

Quote:

Every attack from any melee weapon deals regular damage to objects now?

Melee attacks always have, and do, deal regular damage. The damage taken is reduced by Hardness. This has not changed. In the example of you hitting a Hardness 5 object with a flaming weapon for 8 physical and 4 fire, you would deal 8 + 2 (half of 4 energy damage) = 10, then subtract the hardness of 5 for 5 total damage.

(At least, that's the simplest way to do it in cases where it isn't an object that has some special circumstance that occurs when it takes fire damage but, naturally, due to the sheer number of possible different objects in the entire world there will always be a unique case.)

[Cevah]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Objects (basically things with Hardness) in Pathfinder still take half damage from ranged attacks and energy attacks. What is different is there is no mention of quarter damage for cold or full damage from acid or sonic (though a GM is within their purview to allow either depending on the object). So the object's Hardness applies to all damage (obviously unless the specific attack says otherwise or the object is one that the GM rules vulnerable to that specific attack, like a crystalline object being vulnerable to sonic).

Quote:

Every attack from any melee weapon deals regular damage to objects now?

Melee attacks always have, and do, deal regular damage. The damage taken is reduced by Hardness. This has not changed. In the example of you hitting a Hardness 5 object with a flaming weapon for 8 physical and 4 fire, you would deal 8 + 2 (half of 4 energy damage) = 10, then subtract the hardness of 5 for 5 total damage.

(At least, that's the simplest way to do it in cases where it isn't an object that has some special circumstance that occurs when it takes fire damage but, naturally, due to the sheer number of possible different objects in the entire world there will always be a unique case.)

Actually, apply hardness to see if any damage occurs, and if so, then apply energy damage.

For the 5 hardness, 8 damage and 4 fire, you do (8-5) = 3 damage, and since you did some, you do (4/2) = 2 fire damage if it is susceptible to fire damage. [Metal armor, I would say no. Wooden shield, I would say yes.]

For the 5 hardness, 4 damage and 7 fire, you do no damage, since you did not penetrate the hardness.

Also, remember, enchanting weapons and armor adds hardness and hit points.

/cevah

[Pizza Lord]

Cevah wrote:

Actually, apply hardness to see if any damage occurs, and if so, then apply energy damage.

I don't think that's correct. Unlike Poison or a Stunning Fist attack, which requires you to damage the target, the additional energy damage we're discussing occurs on a successful hit. Similar to how you would still roll to confirm a critical hit against a creature immune to critical hits when using a bursting weapon to see if it deals extra energy damage. I think the additional energy damage from the flaming weapon is considered extra damage that's added to the attack, similar to how 3D6 Sneak Attack damage increases the total damage from a 1d4 dagger attack which otherwise might not bypass DR 5. (That's Damage Reduction, not Hardness, but I think the interaction is similar.)

Quote:

For the 5 hardness, 8 damage and 4 fire, you do (8-5) = 3 damage, and since you did some, you do (4/2) = 2 fire damage if it is susceptible to fire damage. [Metal armor, I would say no. Wooden shield, I would say yes.]

Nothing wrong with making this call, I wouldn't. I see nothing that says metal is immune to heat or fire (at least, the undirected fire of the attack we're discussing, rather than say, the metal of a lantern or lamp in regards to the flame its designed to contain.)

I believe the fact that the metal has Hardness 10 rather than 5 (wood) more than accounts for its resistance to the damage rather than just ruling it's immune. Ultimately it would amount to doing no damage to the metal object, just like with your method, but for different reasons.

[Claxon]

You know, not that it has ever come up much but I've always thought you should apply the hardness separately against any energy damage you might deal with a physical attack.

Kind of how DR wont reduce energy damage, hardness would apply separately against both physical damage and energy damage.

But now I'm not so sure that's the case. And I'm not sure why I thought that, other than that was how I intuitively interpreted it. Of course it makes the energy based damage enhancement bonuses largely worthless (but then they almost always were since they only did 1d6 damage and any amount of energy resistance practically negated it).

[Cevah]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Cevah wrote:

Actually, apply hardness to see if any damage occurs, and if so, then apply energy damage.

I don't think that's correct. ...

Quote:

For the 5 hardness, 8 damage and 4 fire, you do (8-5) = 3 damage, and since you did some, you do (4/2) = 2 fire damage if it is susceptible to fire damage. [Metal armor, I would say no. Wooden shield, I would say yes.]

Nothing wrong with making this call, I wouldn't. I see nothing that says metal is immune to heat or fire (at least, the undirected fire of the attack we're discussing, rather than say, the metal of a lantern or lamp in regards to the flame its designed to contain.)

I believe the fact that the metal has Hardness 10 rather than 5 (wood) more than accounts for its resistance to the damage rather than just ruling it's immune. Ultimately it would amount to doing no damage to the metal object, just like with your method, but for different reasons.

We are both wrong. PRD

Hardness wrote:

Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).

Energy Attacks wrote:

Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

For the 5 hardness, 8 damage and 4 fire, you do (8+(4/2)) - 5 = 5 damage, or 8 - 5 = 3 damage if it is not susceptible to fire damage.

For the 5 hardness, 4 damage and 7 fire, you do (4+(7/2)) - 5 = 2 damage, or no damage if it is not susceptible to fire damage.

Why do I think metal armor is not subject to fire? Because it is well heated in the forge when it is made. That is way hotter than a brief touch of fire from a weapon.

/cevah

[Pizza Lord]

Cevah wrote:

Why do I think metal armor is not subject to fire? Because it is well heated in the forge when it is made. That is way hotter than a brief touch of fire from a weapon.

I think that's covered by its 10 hardness (not including enhancement bonuses) and the fact that fire damage is halved.

[Cevah]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Cevah wrote:

Why do I think metal armor is not subject to fire? Because it is well heated in the forge when it is made. That is way hotter than a brief touch of fire from a weapon.

I think that's covered by its 10 hardness (not including enhancement bonuses) and the fact that fire damage is halved.

Not covered.

Energy Attacks wrote:

Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

Material vulnerable to certain energy types take full damage from that energy type.

-- Fire vs. paper
Material not affected by it take no damage.
-- Sonic vs. cloth

I can apply the Hardening spell to paper and give it hardness 5. It still will take full damage from fire.

/cevah

[Pizza Lord]

Cevah wrote:

Pizza Lord wrote:

Cevah wrote:

Why do I think metal armor is not subject to fire? Because it is well heated in the forge when it is made. That is way hotter than a brief touch of fire from a weapon.

I think that's covered by its 10 hardness (not including enhancement bonuses) and the fact that fire damage is halved.

Not covered.

The hardness of the item most certainly does cover the damage from energy attacks. The damage is divided by 2 and then you apply Hardness to it. Obviously if the item is immune to the energy type or the damage, then it doesn't matter if it has Hardness or not. We can safely assume that ice is going to be immune to cold damage, even if that isn't spelled out anywhere. Just because a sword is forged and beaten repeatedly doesn't make it immune to fire or bludgeoning. A sudden burst of heat can damage the temper and weaken the blade as surely as a strong blow from a mace. The hardness (and the half damage) means it will require a strong source of heat. I think confusing this incredible resistance with immunity is not a correct approach.

Quote:

Material vulnerable to certain energy types take full damage from that energy type.

-- Fire vs. paper
Material not affected by it take no damage.
-- Sonic vs. cloth
/cevah

This discussion is not about objects that take full damage from energy. Certainly we can have a stonebreaker acid that ignores the hardness of stone, but typically acid damage does not ignore the hardness. There might even be a case where it deals full damage... but still doesn't bypass the hardness. The text you are quoting doesn't say that the fire or the sonic ignores the hardness, only that it deals full damage, not half. So if you did use a hardening spell on a piece of paper or flammable cloth (normally hardness 0), the object would take full damage (so 8 instead of 4, for instance) but its hardness would still apply to the damage. A wick or paper or oil-soaked cloth might still catch fire, but its hardness would still apply (unless a GM rules otherwise in a specific case).