Lets say I have a tactical baton (normally a analog weapon), but it got the shock fusion (the shock fusion weaves the electrical energy of the universe into the weapon’s form. Half the weapon’s damage type is replaced with electricity damage).
Can I now use Jolting Surge with my shock fused tactical baton?
(Jolting Surge = You touch a target with a device you’re holding that uses electricity).
If it is for society play always assume the dm will hose you and say no. It doesn't matter if this is a ok by the rules. They will parse something like it needs to use a battery to count or it needs to be laser weapon.
If it isn't for society play yes.
Hm.. debateable, I'd say. Magically generating electricity isn't the same as being an electrical device, so if the spell works by being cunducted through copper wires (or whatever they use in the far-flung future of lost golrion (tm)) it's not going to find any of those. However... as they're both magical effects, I'd let you do if I was running the game. See no reason not to.
Either way though, if your opponent is carrying any electrical device on their person, you're better off trying to poke that than poke them with your pokey stick, +2 to hit is nothing to sneeze at.
My inclination would be "no", because the tactical baton is still a tactical baton. It might have an enchantment on it that zaps targets with electricity, but its still an Analog device ( ie, a big solid hunk of metal or whatnot, that functions by bulk physical properties ). It doesn't *use* electricity, there's just some sigils on it that happen to throw mini lightning bolts ( also generated by non-technological means ).
Metaphysician wrote: My inclination would be "no", because the tactical baton is still a tactical baton. It might have an enchantment on it that zaps targets with electricity, but its still an Analog device ( ie, a big solid hunk of metal or whatnot, that functions by bulk physical properties ). It doesn't *use* electricity, there's just some sigils on it that happen to throw mini lightning bolts ( also generated by non-technological means ). exhibit A on why you can't use this for society play. The thing uses electricity. But he is determined to parse it to outlaw any out of the box thinking.
Toxicsyn wrote: Lets say I have a tactical baton (normally a analog weapon), but it got the shock fusion (the shock fusion weaves the electrical energy of the universe into the weapon’s form. Half the weapon’s damage type is replaced with electricity damage).
Can I now use Jolting Surge with my shock fused tactical baton?
(Jolting Surge = You touch a target with a device you’re holding that uses electricity).
Are you not arguing to get a free weapon attack with the baton out of this right?
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Halek wrote:
exhibit A on why you can't use this for society play. The thing uses electricity. But he is determined to parse it to outlaw any out of the box thinking.
Just because you WANT something to work a certain way doesn't mean they do and it certainly doesn't give the right to denigrate society play because people don't agree with your reading of the rules.
Now that that's out of the way, Show me where in the rules it says that things that do a certain type of damage use that thing.
Do lasers use fire? They do fire damage but I wouldn't argue they use fire (i.e. are powered by fire) similarly a tactical baton with the shock fusion has a magical fusion which channels the electrical current of the universe to do electric damage but it does not use electricity itself.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
"Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Are you not arguing to get a free weapon attack with the baton out of this right? I assumed the op wasnt because that's not how jolting surge works. I assumed he was trying to avoid having to have an electronic device in his hands when he cast the spell and wants to use a shock baton.
I thought about commenting the same thing though, so I see where your head is at.
Halek wrote: Metaphysician wrote: My inclination would be "no", because the tactical baton is still a tactical baton. It might have an enchantment on it that zaps targets with electricity, but its still an Analog device ( ie, a big solid hunk of metal or whatnot, that functions by bulk physical properties ). It doesn't *use* electricity, there's just some sigils on it that happen to throw mini lightning bolts ( also generated by non-technological means ). exhibit A on why you can't use this for society play. The thing uses electricity. But he is determined to parse it to outlaw any out of the box thinking. "Out of the box thinking" does not magically make a non-electrical device into an electrical device. Neither does magical runes, whatever their effect, magically change a device from being Analog to being an electronic one.
Besides, electrical devices are nearly ubiquitous on every character and most opponents. Why, exactly, is it so important that one particular device be usable?
"Uses electricity" is not a defined game term, so i would default to common English, if the baton is jolting with electricity than i would allow the spell. Uses batteries would possibly be closer to the author's intent and allow an easy check against rules elements to determine but we dont have that here, this is something else.
Torbyne wrote: "Uses electricity" is not a defined game term, so i would default to common English, if the baton is jolting with electricity than i would allow the spell. Uses batteries would possibly be closer to the author's intent and allow an easy check against rules elements to determine but we dont have that here, this is something else. Does metal use electricity? No. It can, however, be electrified. That is the difference.
We don't say a fork uses electricity if it is jammed into an electrical socket.
Something that "uses electricity" is something that performs an action that requires it to draw electricity from a source in order to function.
HWalsh wrote: Torbyne wrote: "Uses electricity" is not a defined game term, so i would default to common English, if the baton is jolting with electricity than i would allow the spell. Uses batteries would possibly be closer to the author's intent and allow an easy check against rules elements to determine but we dont have that here, this is something else. Does metal use electricity? No. It can, however, be electrified. That is the difference.
We don't say a fork uses electricity if it is jammed into an electrical socket.
Something that "uses electricity" is something that performs an action that requires it to draw electricity from a source in order to function. Is a baton metal? Probably, lets just say "yes" but it isnt really important in this hypothetical.
Does a baton use electricity? Nope.
Did you just slap a magical fusion thing onto a metal stick? Yes.
Is that metal stick now arcing with electricity? Yes.
Did sparks literally fly when you hit that dude with your electricity stick? Yes.
Did that dude get electrical burns from being hit with that stick? yes.
For a moment there, questions 1 and 2, the baton did not use electricity but then, it did.
The "use" of the electricity was the torturous agony inflicted on that dude and you are really hard pressed to say electricity was not used once the fusion seal was applied. Without a specific game definition, a weapon or item property of "uses electricity" or what limited sense of "uses" is being checked against than you are left with a very open statement.
Torbyne wrote: HWalsh wrote: Torbyne wrote: "Uses electricity" is not a defined game term, so i would default to common English, if the baton is jolting with electricity than i would allow the spell. Uses batteries would possibly be closer to the author's intent and allow an easy check against rules elements to determine but we dont have that here, this is something else. Does metal use electricity? No. It can, however, be electrified. That is the difference.
We don't say a fork uses electricity if it is jammed into an electrical socket.
Something that "uses electricity" is something that performs an action that requires it to draw electricity from a source in order to function. Is a baton metal? Probably, lets just say "yes" but it isnt really important in this hypothetical.
Does a baton use electricity? Nope.
Did you just slap a magical fusion thing onto a metal stick? Yes.
Is that metal stick now arcing with electricity? Yes.
Did sparks literally fly when you hit that dude with your electricity stick? Yes.
Did that dude get electrical burns from being hit with that stick? yes.
For a moment there, questions 1 and 2, the baton did not use electricity but then, it did.
The "use" of the electricity was the torturous agony inflicted on that dude and you are really hard pressed to say electricity was not used once the fusion seal was applied. Without a specific game definition, a weapon or item property of "uses electricity" or what limited sense of "uses" is being checked against than you are left with a very open statement. I know that's what you want it to mean, but that's not the common parlance use of the phrase.
It's kind of like in a mobster movie someone says, "They sent him home in a body bag."
They mean that they killed him. They don't mean that they loaded him up into a body bag and brought him back.
Shaudius wrote: "Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Are you not arguing to get a free weapon attack with the baton out of this right? I assumed the op wasnt because that's not how jolting surge works. I assumed he was trying to avoid having to have an electronic device in his hands when he cast the spell and wants to use a shock baton.
I thought about commenting the same thing though, so I see where your head is at. I agree experience has tough be to be careful answering a player's question that seems too irrelevant. No needing a dirt cheap electronic item does not seem much of a question... so it's better to ask.
HWalsh wrote: Torbyne wrote: HWalsh wrote: Torbyne wrote: "Uses electricity" is not a defined game term, so i would default to common English, if the baton is jolting with electricity than i would allow the spell. Uses batteries would possibly be closer to the author's intent and allow an easy check against rules elements to determine but we dont have that here, this is something else. Does metal use electricity? No. It can, however, be electrified. That is the difference.
We don't say a fork uses electricity if it is jammed into an electrical socket.
Something that "uses electricity" is something that performs an action that requires it to draw electricity from a source in order to function. Is a baton metal? Probably, lets just say "yes" but it isnt really important in this hypothetical.
Does a baton use electricity? Nope.
Did you just slap a magical fusion thing onto a metal stick? Yes.
Is that metal stick now arcing with electricity? Yes.
Did sparks literally fly when you hit that dude with your electricity stick? Yes.
Did that dude get electrical burns from being hit with that stick? yes.
For a moment there, questions 1 and 2, the baton did not use electricity but then, it did.
The "use" of the electricity was the torturous agony inflicted on that dude and you are really hard pressed to say electricity was not used once the fusion seal was applied. Without a specific game definition, a weapon or item property of "uses electricity" or what limited sense of "uses" is being checked against than you are left with a very open statement. I know that's what you want it to mean, but that's not the common parlance use of the phrase.
It's kind of like in a mobster movie someone says, "They sent him home in a body bag."
They mean that they killed him. They don't mean that they loaded him up into a body bag and brought him back. Can we agree that the common meaning of the phrase, "uses electricity" is that a thing will use electricity to achieve a result?
ie:
A calculator will use electricity to run calculations.
A Cattle Prod will use electricity to produce an electrical jolt and pain on contact.
Both of the example items are legitimately "using electricity"
In a science fantasy future setting the cattle prod could run on effectively infinite energy by taking ambient energy waves and converting them to electricity on contact, the source of the electricity does not matter so much if our only concern is to classify an item as using electricity or not. in this instance is obvious to me that the cattle prod uses electricity to achieve its function. a baton that gains an electrical function from a magical seal is to me just as legitimately using electricity as a cattle prod, in setting you are converting kinetic energy into electrical energy which would meet the qualification, in game rules the weapon deals electrical damage which would also imply that it is using electricity to do so.
Thank you for the responses. This was intended for society play, and it seems common consensus is that jolting surge only works for technological devices.
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