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Here's a hypothetical: 3rd level Witch takes Craft Wondrous Item for her feat. Wants to try and create a Scabbard of Many Blades [ACG]. It's a CL 9 item, and requires knowing the spell Secret Chest (5th level, and on the Witch spell list but obviously she doesn't know it yet).
Base Spellcraft check would be 9 (CL of item) + 5 = 14 but since she doesn't yet know Secret Chest, you add another 5 for a total skill check of 19.
At 3rd level, w/ an 18 Int and maxed ranks in Spellcraft, her total bonus is 4+3+3 = 10. So if she had the time and money, she would have to roll a 9 or higher on d20 or else have wasted her time and money; if she rolls low enough, maybe even get a cursed item.
So far so good? The part that's confusing me is in the CRB, though.
"Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."
I suppose if my new-best-friend, that 9th level mage who has prepared Secret Chest for the day, was around to help me craft it...I'd be back to a 14 skill check. But that's a ridiculous scenario. What I need help w/ understanding, though, is the reference to "another magic item". Does that mean a 1-use item like a scroll or potion (for lower level spells)? Or a permanent magic item? I'm not grasping something, but hopefully those crafters out there on the boards can explain what that means.
Thanks.
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Tried to edit my post but the current software bugs wouldn't allow me...
Addendum: some items beyond requiring a Craft feat + spell, might also require a class feature. Does this lock out my Witch from ever crafting that, or is it just a matter of adding +5 to the difficulty? Can the Witch use UMD (emulate a class feature) to try and get around that prerequisite?
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Tried to edit my post but the current software bugs wouldn't allow me...
Addendum: some items beyond requiring a Craft feat + spell, might also require a class feature. Does this lock out my Witch from ever crafting that, or is it just a matter of adding +5 to the difficulty? Can the Witch use UMD (emulate a class feature) to try and get around that prerequisite?
If your witch doesn’t have a class feature, it’s +5 to the DC. And I wouldn’t allow using a skill like UMB to get around that. You’re already using a skill to do that via the higher DC.
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If your witch doesn’t have a class feature, it’s +5 to the DC. And I wouldn’t allow using a skill like UMB to get around that. You’re already using a skill to do that via the higher DC.Tried to edit my post but the current software bugs wouldn't allow me...
Addendum: some items beyond requiring a Craft feat + spell, might also require a class feature. Does this lock out my Witch from ever crafting that, or is it just a matter of adding +5 to the difficulty? Can the Witch use UMD (emulate a class feature) to try and get around that prerequisite?
Thank you Bill. I can live w/ a +5 to the DC, as opposed to simply never being able to create sth.
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What I need help w/ understanding, though, is the reference to "another magic item". Does that mean a 1-use item like a scroll or potion (for lower level spells)? Or a permanent magic item?
Something like that, yes. A wand or staff or intelligent magic item that can cast the spell in question.
Maybe not a potion, because that normally only affects the drinker.
... now I'm envisioning a cauldron (or other liquid containment device) full of potions you dip your item into repeatedly as you try and craft it...
>.>
Thanks, Matt. :I
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What I need help w/ understanding, though, is the reference to "another magic item". Does that mean a 1-use item like a scroll or potion (for lower level spells)? Or a permanent magic item? I'm not grasping something, but hopefully those crafters out there on the boards can explain what that means.
Thanks.
Usually means a scroll or wand, but any item that can cast the spell will do. And do note that you may need multiple scrolls or charges. You have to expend the spell (or use a scroll/and charge) every day you craft. So if the item takes 10 days to make, you need 10 scrolls.
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... now I'm envisioning a cauldron (or other liquid containment device) full of potions you dip your item into repeatedly as you try and craft it...
>.>
Thanks, Matt. :I
Try a cauldron of Oils instead. Oils are better than potions, unless you like the taste of potions more than you like oil-based massages.
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I suppose if my new-best-friend, that 9th level mage who has prepared Secret Chest for the day, was around to help me craft it...I'd be back to a 14 skill check. But that's a ridiculous scenario. What I need help w/ understanding, though, is the reference to "another magic item". Does that mean a 1-use item like a scroll or potion (for lower level spells)? Or a permanent magic item? I'm not grasping something, but hopefully those crafters out there on the boards can explain what that means.
"Another magic item" refers to any item that could cast the spell for you. A wand could do it, but if hypothetically we were talking about a spell that's not on your list, you'd probably have to pass a UMD check to actually use the wand. Either way, you'd be out a number of charges equal to how many days you need to spend crafting, since you have to provide the spell each day spent crafting. Similarly, a scroll would work, or rather a number of scrolls equal to the number of days you need to spend casting. Staves would work, too.
Also, this isn't really within the scope of your question, but in your hypothetical the Witch could just take 10 on the Spellcraft check to bypass having to roll at all.
Addendum: some items beyond requiring a Craft feat + spell, might also require a class feature. Does this lock out my Witch from ever crafting that, or is it just a matter of adding +5 to the difficulty? Can the Witch use UMD (emulate a class feature) to try and get around that prerequisite?
The ONLY prerequisite you cannot bypass by increasing the DC is the relevant item crafting feat, unless you're making spell completion or trigger items such as scrolls or wands. Required class feature? Required race? Required skill ranks? Doesn't matter. Even required feats OTHER than the appropriate crafting feat can be ignored.
Try a cauldron of Oils instead. Oils are better than potions, unless you like the taste of potions more than you like oil-based massages.... now I'm envisioning a cauldron (or other liquid containment device) full of potions you dip your item into repeatedly as you try and craft it...
>.>
Thanks, Matt. :I
D-... dang it, Matt! >:I
(So cool. Also, now I've got a vision of a use-activated item that's basically a lolipop...)
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Also, this isn't really within the scope of your question, but in your hypothetical the Witch could just take 10 on the Spellcraft check to bypass having to roll at all.
Now how could I forget about that! Now I can safely get that Scabbard of Many Blades and store all those metamagic rods I'll spend the rest of my career obtaining ;-)
Anyway, thanks to everyone for clearing this up. I just needed some concrete examples to bring it all into focus, and I think I'm there now. Cheers.
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Now I can safely get that Scabbard of Many Blades and store all those metamagic rods I'll spend the rest of my career obtaining ;-)
Rods are only light maces or clubs if their description mentions this, and metamagic rods' descriptions do not. This means metamagic rods are not weapons. What is unclear is what Scabbard of Many Blades's description is referring to: all rods which are considered one-handed weapons for the purpose of the item storage limits, or just rods which actually are one-handed weapons. I personally think it should be the latter for consistency.
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Try a cauldron of Oils instead. Oils are better than potions, unless you like the taste of potions more than you like oil-based massages.... now I'm envisioning a cauldron (or other liquid containment device) full of potions you dip your item into repeatedly as you try and craft it...
>.>
Thanks, Matt. :I
D-... dang it, Matt! >:I
(So cool. Also, now I've got a vision of a use-activated item that's basically a lolipop...)
"How many licks does it take to get to the center of a-"
"Fifty, if new. Otherwise, it varies by how much it's been licked, prior."
"... oh."
EDIT: tyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyypo
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Now I can safely get that Scabbard of Many Blades and store all those metamagic rods I'll spend the rest of my career obtaining ;-)Rods are only light maces or clubs if their description mentions this, and metamagic rods' descriptions do not. This means metamagic rods are not weapons. What is unclear is what Scabbard of Many Blades's description is referring to: all rods which are considered one-handed weapons for the purpose of the item storage limits, or just rods which actually are one-handed weapons. I personally think it should be the latter for consistency.
I'm going to have to disagree w/ you. The text description says "but it can store rods (which are treated as one-handed weapons)...". That's a very specific verb to use, and it implies that they might not actually be weapons; but for the purposes of this item, they are treated as such.
If you can point me to somewhere that makes the weapon/non-weapon distinction for rods you're talking about, I'd be curious to read it. Though it might not change my interpretation for this item regardless. I suppose I should be responsible and check the FAQs for the ACG; I'd accept a FAQ that killed this idea, even if I didn't agree w/ it.
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If you can point me to somewhere that makes the weapon/non-weapon distinction for rods you're talking about, I'd be curious to read it.
Sure. Here's the quote (emphasis mine):
Physical Description: Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.) These sturdy items have AC 9, 10 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 27.
And the same page includes the description for metamagic rods which doesn't mention that they could be used as weapons.
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The scabbard can’t be used to store shields (even if they can be used to make melee attacks), gauntlets, improvised weapons, or wands, but can store rods (which are treated as one-handed weapons) and magic staves (which are treated as two-handed weapons).
Personally, I can see that being read in more than one way.
1) It only functions on rods that are also weapons.
2) It functions on all rods. To determine how many slots it takes up, treat them as one-handed.
Since the item says it doesn't work with things like wands, I assume that #1 is the correct reading. But I can see arguments for #2 as well.
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Can any staves normally be treated as two handed weapons? Without class features.
If not, then the next phrase in the item description tells you how to treat the first
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Can any staves normally be treated as two handed weapons? Without class features.
If not, then the next phrase in the item description tells you how to treat the first
There are some magical staves that do function as weapons as well, such as a staff of the woodlands.
The staff may be used as a weapon, functioning as a +2 quarterstaff. The staff of the woodlands also allows its wielder to cast pass without trace at will, with no charge cost. These two attributes continue to function after all the charges are expended.
@ Darafern: thanks for the breakdown on rods, appreciate it. Like Jeraa posted right after you, though, that sentence could definitely be read either way.
It's almost like we're in a RAW v. RAI debate. I'll have to give it some more thought and see where I want to come out ultimately. Though I might err on the side of conservatism and choose your interpretation, even though it would be disappointing for my character. I guess there's still the old Glove of Storing for maybe a backup Rod.
To my surprise, there was no FAQ linked to the ACG, though. And this is probably too minor to suggest as a FAQ even if there were one. It didn't even make it into UE, I just noticed it by accident in the ACG.