Alright, I had this idea a few month ago about have 3 players vs 3 players arena tournament.
Im still on a draft copy.
The battleground will have some obstacle, wall, pit.
The player will be level 6 with 20 point buy.
Class available : Fighter , Barbarian , Monk , Rogue , Ranger (no spell allowed) , Cavalier (no horse) , Vigilante (Will it be taken?), Slayer , Brawler.
And that's it, no multi-class, no prestige , no achetype.
They will have a 10k gp to spend.
My question is simple :
How can this be abuse?
I know I've just opened the pandora box.
What worries me the most is : I don't want some1 to get 1 hit Koed.
Any advice?
I'd be tempted to specify no animal companions at all, IMO, because you can still take the Nature Soul / Animal Ally feats, and rangers still get animal companions. A human ranger with favored enemy (Human) could have the following setup with the Mounted Combat Style:
1. Power Attack, Furious Focus (human bonus)
2. Mounted Combat (ranger bonus)
3. Ride-by attack, favored terrain (whatever terrain the arena is)
4. Animal Companion (something with a ton of movespeed, probably)
5. Boon Companion (level 6 animal companion), now has a +4 bonus to attack/damage vs. humans
6. Spirited Charge (ranger bonus)
And with that setup, assuming 18 STR, you could be dealing (with a lance wielded in two hands) on a power attack:
1d8+6(STR)+6(Power Attack)+1(weapon enhancement) x3 = 3d8+39 damage on a charge, or if the enemy is a human, 1d8+13+4(favored enemy) = 3d8+51 damage on a charge. That's just assuming a +1 weapon and 18 STR. You could do better. There's no Power Attack penalty because of furious focus, you have ride by attack, the enemy is *probably dead,* and you're hopefully far away from the enemy getting a full attack by the end of the charge. And one of the enemies is *probably dead.*
So yes, this can be broken. And yes, *probably dead* needed to be listed twice. One hit KO potential there.
Natural attack builds are deadly beasts if you let them exist, especially at that low a level. Make sure you're careful about the races you allow. (Boar skinwalker barbarian or ranger, for instance, could break this: claw, claw, hoof, hoof, gore - all by level 6, easy. Lizardfolk are similarly powerful.) If you have five attacks, all made at full BAB, and you're wearing an amulet of mighty fists with a +1d6 damage enchantment, you're gonna SHRED anyone unfortunate enough to get into melee range with you. Bonus points if you have rage and power attack.
Do note that limiting races empowers the Ranger as they're more likely to guess what race at least one enemy will pick. That's a double edged sword to limiting race choices.
Consider the deadliness of ranged attacks at a level like this, and of anyone getting absurdly high initiative as a ranged attacker. Consider the danger of someone getting a climb speed somehow AND being a ranged attacker (climb+stealth up a huge pillar or wall, line up shots, get enemy team flatfooted?). There ARE ways to get a climb speed, including just picking an appropriate race or magic item or drinking a potion of Monkeyfish (super cheap, by the way).
Consumables could be dangerous. Are you disallowing UMD? Magic potions? Scrolls? Someone with UMD could use a wizard scroll and disable the other team pretty easily, or spend his wealth on fly scrolls and have their team go ranged. Potions of fly, too, obviously. There's worse stuff to be imagined; just chew on it and think what could be done.
If you're disallowing ranger spells, do they automatically get an archetype that removes spells and gives them something else?
I'm not a mega munchkin or anything, so others can inform you better than me. However, by and large my policy on PvP in Pathfinder is don't do it.
If you insist, however, you've got a TON to consider, obviously.
One more oddball thought: are you allowing tieflings? Are you allowing the Darkness spell in any way? Because if one team is all humans and the other is, say, a dwarf/dwarf/tiefling combo, they could drop Darkness on the ground and because they have Darkvision largely ignore its penalties while forcing the enemy team to roll 50% miss chances.
And in general, there is NO way to make this a for sure fair fight. Even without archetypes, even with just CORE RULES, you can break this.
Alright, no spell are allowed.
Get rid of any animal compagnion.
If the player are mad about the no ranger spell, they will have to choose another class.
I will stick to the corebook race.
Potion : Cure potion , increase stats potion. (Maybe more)
Item : Only a handfull, will think of that later.
So, what else?
Thank you for the detailled anwser. Much appreciated!
I am thinking about giving everyone DR10/-
Would this be ok?
Giving everyone DR10/- at level 6 pretty much locks out any sort of Two Weapon Fighting characters, as well as Archery if they can't spare a feat for Clustered Shots.
You could alleviate the Rocket Tag problem by giving everyone more HP instead. It would also make combat maneuvers more appealing, as it will be more helpful to debilitate an enemy if you can't just beat him down in one round.
Don't do DR 10/- for everyone, that's a bad idea. Max HP instead?
One thing to note is players can alleviate the rocket tag options themselves. There's a horn that produces Obscuring Mist, which could screw up a team with 2 archers and a melee if they're fighting a melee heavy composition (melee guy is trapped alone without archer support). If you can't see the enemy, you can't charge him or shoot him.
I could see ranged characters being very powerful, especially ranged fighters, in this scenario. A ranged fighter with the Armored Sacrifice feat and a buckler on his offhand (even if he isn't using it) will be able to negate one big hit in the battle by sacrificing the nonmagical buckler to ignore the damage of a potentially lethal attack.
Given that, make sure this area has some spots that are useful for ranged characters, and some that are useful for melee ones. Also, how big do you want this area to be?
Note that whatever you do, it could end up being a game of rock/paper/scissors. A team of dedicated stealth specialists could sneak up on and murder a trio of archers, but be caught early by a half-elf dedicated to Perception that spots them and alerts his own group (or just by bad rolls). A power attack charge specialist may fare incredibly well one match, but get caught off-guard by a trip monster fighter with Armor Sacrifice. A ranger with favored enemy (Human) could do super well against humans, but then fight dwarves and look confused.
One thing I think would be cool? Some tabletop wargames have the players take turn setting down pieces of the environment on the board to try and set up a scenario that best benefits their team, but then they roll off to see who gets to choose where they deploy first. It could be a fun way to do the battle map.
Also, I'd put limits on the number of consumables in play. Say, tell everyone they can bring 5 consumables max, their choice, and that alchemical equipment (like tanglefoot bags) count as 1/2 a consumable. Maybe?
Shorticus wrote: One thing to note is players can alleviate the rocket tag options themselves. There's a horn that produces Obscuring Mist, which could screw up a team with 2 archers and a melee if they're fighting a melee heavy composition (melee guy is trapped alone without archer support). If you can't see the enemy, you can't charge him or shoot him. No idea if magic items are even allowed, let alone those that reproduce spells.
Of course, the amount of cover inside the arena will dramatically change how good archers are, and whether stealth tactics will be useful.
With 10k gold to spend, I'd imagine magic items of some kind are allowed. If a horn of fog wasn't allowed, a handful of smoke sticks could serve a similar purpose. 10 foot cubes aren't very big, but depending on the situation a smokestick could be super useful for denying ranged attackers a chance to involve themselves while a party tangles with enemy melee guys.
Also, as far as rangers go: why not just force them to use Skirmisher archetype? Read it over: it replaces all the Ranger's spells with special abilities - the Ranger gets exactly ONE at level 5. That's something, at least; and frankly, you're already nerfing the Ranger pretty hard by not giving them animal companions.
Likewise, for the Cavalier you can give them an archetype that doesn't use mounts (otherwise you're wasting most of their class features). This renders several abilities the Cavalier gains *useless,* and you're not allowing multiclassing, so who in their right mind will take a cavalier? (Expert Trainer, Mount, and Cavalier's Charge are all pretty core abilities for a cavalier, and you've essentially taken them away while giving them nothing in return - and the cavalier was already a fairly "okay" class, not a great one.) I'd offer them the option of base cavalier, Castellan, or Honor Guard. Assuming the arena counts as an Urban setting, those choices would make the Cavalier more appealing. Again, getting rid of the mount (thus also Cavalier's charge) is stripping the Cavalier pretty darned bare.
Yeah, I am still in the process making. That's why I asked for advice :P
So a few more input :
1) The arena will be presented to the players before the fight.
2) The arena will be 150x150 (30 square x 30)
3) Replacing Ranger for the skirmisher archetype.
4) Replacing Cavalier with : Castellan and Honor Guard
5) Comsumption item : Still in process but I think about doing a list of what will be allowed. Can't allow everything :S
6) Tabletop wargame : Will ask my player beforehand.
7) Player will start at max hp +20%. (Removing the DR10/-)
Thank guy :P
Just to be clear: Is your object to see who comes up with the better build and tactics while removing as many 'auto-win' conditions as possible?
You could also run this with multiple iterations, with each one taking place with different conditions. Some options:
Flooded arena - water is 1-7' deep.
Dark arena - entire arena is dark, or dim light with areas of darkness.
The Maze - draw a maze on the board. Don't let the players see it. Each team gets a verbal description of the space they're moving through. Only show the areas of the map where combatants can see each other.
Trapped arena - various traps are scattered across the space, some hidden, some obvious, with different saves (Reflex, Will, Fortitude).
Mercenaries - Four 3rd level characters are available Each team may hire one or two. Set a minimum hiring price, modified by a Diplomacy check (the team's 'pitch' to hire). Spice it up by having 4 different mercs, say a monk, a rogue, a barbarian and an archer ranger.
Smallfoot wrote: Just to be clear: Is your object to see who comes up with the better build and tactics while removing as many 'auto-win' conditions as possible? Kinda,
What I don't want is the combat ending in less than 6 round.
Trap are a cool idea. Will think about that.
Using the roll20 dynamic lightning tool I can come up with great combat arena with line of sight.
Don't think I will put mercenary into play.
The player won't see eachother at the start, because there will be wall and other obstacle.
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