Hello Everyone! I've been working recently on a rebuild of my current character to an Avenger Vigilante. Looking for feedback on if the setup will work well or if I should instead go TWF route? Even more so, since I'm mainly focusing on melee damage and the group for the game isn't huge into roleplaying, would I see more reliable with another melee class such as Fighter or Barbarian? Monk isn't an option right now since one of the other players is already playing Monk. I would be swapping in at level 8, so I've only built up to that point. Any advice for past level 8 is of course appreciated
I'd post a link to the HeroLabs pdf file of the build, it looks like I need a few more posts before I'm permitted to do so.
Vigilante Build
-Race: Vishkanya
-Alt Racial Trait: Subtle Appearance
-Traits: Adopted (Warrior of Old), Armor Expert, Besmara's Blessing (Campaign)
-Drawbacks: Dependent
01: Social Talent: Social Grace, Vigilante Specialization: Avenger, Feat: Weapon Focus (Falchion)
02: Vigilante Talent: Shield of Blades (+Power Attack)
03: Social Talent: Renown +4, Feat: Fucious Focus
04: Vigilante Talent: Signature Weapon (Falchion) (+Weapon Focus (Falchion), Dazzling Display (Falchion), Ability: Strength +1
05: Social Talent: Safe House, Gory Finish
06: Vigilante Talent: Vital Punishment (+Vital Strike)
07: Social Talent: Quick Change, Feat: Shatter Defenses (Falchion)
08: Vigilante Talent: Combat Skill (Improved Critical), Ability: Strength +1
VIgilante talents are generally worth more than feats. Any time you find yourself getting a vigilante talent like Combat Skill, think again. You can get Improved Crit next level and get something like Armor Skin, Close the Gap, Cunning Feint, Sure-Footed or Unkillable at 8th. Those plus Mad Rush at 12th are worth looking at for future talents IMO.
Martial Dominance might be more useful than Gory Finish; it occurs more often and saves you skill points. You could get one first and the other later of course. Signature Skill (Intimidate) might be something to go for later too.
I'm fairly sure there's a way to export characters as text from Hero Labs, I've seen what looks like such an export pasted into posts or aliases here. It might just be copy/paste from the pdf.
Initially, thank you for reviewing my build and providing feedback!
I copied my post from another board where my prior statement about not having enough posts to link URLs was true but forgot that before submitting my post here. Here's the link to the current character at level 8 from HeroLabs pdf output. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-5dTr9t3rQXV3Y1TkFHal9RMDg/view
A fair point in regards to Vigilante Talents... I think I was simply too hungry for Imp. Critical and jumped on it asap. Looking at each of the options you mentioned though,
- Armor Check: The main gain I see from this is no longer suffering speed impediment at 8th level. I think I initially disregarded this with the TWF build I was also considering, but the max dex bonus concern is not as big of a thing here since this build is more str based. This is probably my second favorite of the ones you proposed.
- Close the Gap: The movement option sounds really solid with the only downside being that you still provoke AOO from other enemies near you or ones you "pass" while charging to your target. Let me know if my read on that is wrong though. As a side note, since this is a character rebuild, I'm able to keep some of the gear/items/gold from my current character and was planning to purchase Boots of Speed for both mobility and haste.
- Cunning Feint: This one sounds really good to me and is currently likely the one I will switch to. I like that it has synergy with my existing investment with Buff. Only negative is that it will probably won't be as useful on trash enemies.
- Sure-Footed: I'm personally not investing a lot into the sneak and backstab ability options that Vigilante provides. They look good, but I just don't think it's the style I'm aiming for thematically with this build.
- Unkillable: This one is probably my third favorite of your suggestions with Armor Check winning out only since it will likely be utilized a lot more often. The GM gives us challenges, but it's not often we hit the floor. Although it has happened a few times, I can probably count the number of occurrences on one hand.
Looking ahead at Mad Rush, how would this function with the Vital Strike build I have setup so far? I'm curious since Mad Rush's appeal looks to be the option to do a full attack at the end of a charge, but Vital Strike always swings once for double weapon damage before adding mods which I don't believe requires a full attack. My initial read has this more useful to TWF build, but want to know why I'm wrong, if so. :)
I agree that Martial Dominance will be useful with a build like this and was planning to take it just for Intimidate checks triggering off of critical hits. I was planning to take this after Improved Critical since the option for it to shine will be there. When I make this character, pending GM approval, I'm upgrading the Falchion to have Keen attribute, so after Imp. crit it should be 15-20 range. So nice.
Signature Skill (Intimidate) is one I need to research more, but from what I see so far it clearly lines up with this build as well. I believe the GM said before that we can opt for unchained skills, so I think that would make this feat usable, but need to double check. Oddly, though, while I can find it under General Feats on d20pfsrd, I don't see it in HeroLabs at this time.
I also found that there is an option in HeroLabs for Output Hero Statblock, which includes text output...
Sevrit - Avenger Falchion #2-8
Female vishkanya vigilante 8 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 281, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Intrigue 9)
LN Medium humanoid (vishkanya)
Hero Points 1
Init +3; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 12, flat-footed 19 (+4 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +3 shield)
hp 73 (8d8+24)
Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +6; +8 bonus vs. poison
Defensive Abilities poison resistance, unshakable (+8)
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 keen falchion +15 (4d4+19/15-20) or
mwk dagger +11 (2d4+11/19-20)
Ranged composite longbow +10 (2d8+2/×3)
Special Attacks startling appearance
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +10; CMD 25
Feats Dazzling Display, Furious Focus[APG], Gory Finish[UC], Improved Critical (falchion), Power Attack, Shatter Defenses, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (falchion), Weapon Specialization (falchion)
Traits adopted, armor expert, besmara's blessing, warrior of old
Skills Acrobatics +5, Appraise +4, Bluff +10, Climb +9, Diplomacy +4, Disable Device +3, Disguise +8 (+28 to appear as part of polite society while in your social identity, +12 to look fully human), Escape Artist +3, Intimidate +10 (+14 when in your social identity, +14 in your area of renown while in your vigilante identity), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (engineering) +4, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Perception +12, Sense Motive +9 (+13 when in your social identity), Sleight of Hand +5, Stealth +7, Survival +3, Swim +14, Use Magic Device +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Escape Artist, +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Common, Vishkanya
SQ dependent, dual identity, hero points, poison use, social grace, social talents (quick change[UI], renown[UI], safe house[UI], social grace[UI]), subtle appearance[ARG], toxic, vigilante specialization (avenger[UI]), vigilante talents (combat skill[UI], shield of blades[UI], signature weapon[UI], vital punishment[UI])
Combat Gear potion of blur, potion of cure light wounds (3), potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of cure serious wounds, potion of protection from evil, potion of protection from law, potion of spider climb, potion of water breathing; Other Gear +1 studded leather, +1 keen falchion, composite longbow (+2 Str) with 20 arrows, mwk dagger, amulet of natural armor +1, boots of speed, bracers of archery, lesser, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, ring of swimming, 9,105 gp, 5 sp
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Special Abilities
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Dazzling Display (Falchion) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Dependent Shaken for 1 hour when you fail a Diplomacy check.
Dual Identity (Ex) Each identity maintains own alignment, can switch over 1 min. Magical means treat an ID as non existant while not adopted.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gory Finish Make an Intimidate check if you reduce an opponent to negative hit points
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Poison Resistance +8 Gain listed bonus to saves vs. poison.
Poison Use (Ex) You do not risk poisoning yourself accidentally while poisoning a weapon.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Change (Ex) Change ID as a full-round action, but easier to detect unless take 1 rd more.
Renown +4 (area of renown) (Ex) 1 week action, in chosen community +1 default attitude in social ID, bonus to Intim in vigilante ID.
Safe House (512,000 cu. ft.) (Ex) Gain safe area protected from divinations. If have renown, can move it around area of renown.
Shield of Blades (Ex) When power attacking, gain penalty to attack as shield bonus to AC.
Signature Weapon (Falchion) (Ex) The vigilante must select one type of weapon (such as longsword or crossbow) when he gains this talent. He gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat for his selected weapon type. If he already has the Weapon Focus feat with the selected weapon, he can immed
Social Grace (Intimidate) +4 circumstance bonus to selected skill while in your social identity.
Social Grace (Sense Motive) +4 circumstance bonus to selected skill while in your social identity.
Startling Appearance (Ex) Attacking unaware foe makes them flat-footed and they -4 to attack you for 1 rd.
Subtle Appearance +4 on disguise checks to appear fully human.
Toxic (2/day, DC 16) (Ex) Can apply poisonous blood/saliva to a weapon as a swift action.
Unshakable +8 (Ex) Add the listed bonus to the DC of foes attempting Intimidate checks against you.
Vital Punishment (1/round) (Ex) Can apply Vital strike to one AoO each round.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
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Vital Strike doubles the weapon damage dice but not bonuses. It's nice for your AoOs but a full attack is going to be solidly better when it's an option. Looking at the stat block above doubling 2d4 gives you +5 damage on average, a second attack gives you +24 damage. More than that - hasted you should have 4 attacks at 12th, albeit 2 of those are at reduced attack bonuses - and compare to the +10 average damage of Improved Vital Strike at that level, and you should see Mad Rushes value.
Also looking at that export you've got a solid offence but fairly weak defence. Even without Armor Skin you could get a +2 mithral chain shirt for more AC easily, at no cost to skills or movement. The Armor Expert trait suggests you'll be going for medium armor at some point. The composite longbow probably wants an upgrade to +1 Adaptive at some point too.
Agreed regarding the weak defense. I originally build the character for TWF and had worries about the Max Dex values for armor, so opted for light at the time. When I later made the build here, the armor was just one thing I forgot to change to match the build change. I've replaced the leather armor listed with +2 Mithril Lamellar (steel) armor which puts me up to 24 AC now while Power Attacking, 21 otherwise.
I'm of course looking forward to Improved Vital Strike at 11, but still curious about a few things. Such as, should I invest in cleave? Is investing in Trip an effective strategy? Both paths seem highly situational, but really useful when it applies.
Since you've broken down how Vital Strike can end up being situationally effective, is there possibly more gain with a TWF build? This is a link to the PDF of the TWF build I was considering, but I have not yet checked it in detail by level to verify all options are legitimate.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-5dTr9t3rQXV3Y1TkFHal9RMDg/view?usp=shari ng
When you can get a full attack it's clear the TWF will be better - though I'd use kukris or short swords rather than rapiers to avoid the -2 attack penalty. When you're moving and attacking (before 12th level), or when taking an AoO the falchion wielder will have the advantage. How mobile are the fights under this particular GM? That should help decide which you would find more effective.
Sorry, I haven't verified it level by level either.
Cleave is a low level strategy, by 8th level it's suboptimal. Trip can be effective but to continue being effective at high levels you have to invest everything into it.
Hmmm... good information giving me pause for thought. I would say the fights the GM provides to date haven't been terribly mobile. More often than not it's a few cronies to compromise mobility with the chance of swarm damage and a caster or two for ranged threat. There hasn't really been any chasing (except a few flee scenarios) or a large number of dispersed casters, yet. Taking that into consideration, I think the TWF build may be better. Even more so if I add Close the Gap as the next Vigilante Trait as it will allow for more mobility with full round attack options when they are needed.
I went ahead swapped the rapier to kukri on my TWF build as well since kukri nets 15-20 crit range with Improved Critical and I won't have to make sure I have Keen enchantment on each weapon going forward like I'd have to for Short Sword to maintain this crit range.
On a side note, although I've never been huge into stealth actions, I am enjoying the synergy the TWF build has for it over the Falchion build. After work today I'll rebuild the TWF by level to make sure everything is appropriate.